easster show in germany

[Reich Crispies]

No, it has escalated because everybody here ignored the concerns of the German reenactors.

This is total fabrication. On what do you base this statement on? Your point of view has been put forward and your wishes complied with! Why do you now claim that they are being ignored?
No Runes, no swastikas, no W-SS. ALL that your side wanted has been granted!

[Hoover]

No, sorry. The German reenactors who did the very bad postings were upset because of the rule that SS will be allowed on the non-public days. That is not their goal.

Here not one person said one word that they underrstood the German concernings, not one said a word about the danger for the whole German scene. That means ignoring the opinion of the German reenactors.

Your view is very one sided.

Edit:

Mit möglichst originalgetreuen Uniformen und Ausrüstungsgegenständen sollen historische Schlachten nachgestellt werden. Der Chef des NRW-Verfassungsschutzes, Dr. Hartwig Möller warnt: "Wer sich mit der "Waffen-SS" ausgerechnet die Kampfeinheit zum Vorbild nimmt, die die nationalsozialistische Herrenmenschen-Ideologie in die Tat umzusetzen hatte, gerät automatisch in den Verdacht, der Ideologie des "Dritten Reiches" verbunden zu sein."

Die aktiven Teilnehmer treten überwiegend in den Uniformen der früheren "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" auf. Bei "Darstellungsübungen", die im benachbarten Ausland stattfinden, ist das Tragen von SS-Uniformen für diese Mitglieder meist obligatorisch. In Uniformen der ehemaligen Waffen-SS spielen Personen aus Deutschland und anderen Ländern Schlachten des zweiten Weltkriegs nach. Dazu mahnt Innenminister Behrens: "SS-Uniformen sind kein Spielzeug für Erwachsene! Wer dies tut, identifiziert sich mit der auf Hitler persönlich vereidigten Elite-Truppe und dokumentiert dies auch nach außen."

Hier der ganze Artikel: http://www.im.nrw.de/pe/pm2001/pm2001/news_1296.htm

This is a warning against SS-reenactors, given by the authorities.

[Reich Crispies]

Here not one person said one word that they underrstood the German concernings, not one said a word about the danger for the whole German scene. That means ignoring the opinion of the German reenactors.

You may be almost right on this one, because they arent logically explained! Clarity is asked for and ignored.

Your view is very one sided.

And yours? You dont answer question, make false and accusing statements based on what? A couple of people objecting on this forum.
Not only are your views one sided they are blinkered like a race horse. You seem unable to see anyone elses viewpoint let alone admit its validity.

[Ohmhagen]

I am writing on behalf of my group, the "Interessengemeinschaft Panzergrenadierdivision Großdeutschland".

We might be the newest group in Germany (founded November 2009), but are the biggest with a membership of 91 reenactors from Germany, Spain and Poland, with 72 of our comrades being German.

Our group is based on a hierarchically structure, we do take a yearly membership fee and have one spokesperson who is entitled to speak on behalf of the group and represent all members in every way.

We welcome everyone in Germany who is interested in reenactment and consider ourselves a a lobby for everyone who joins us in this hobby. We are aware of the special circumstances that result from our history, but want to point out that no german law differentiates between the military branches, including the Waffen SS!

An impression of Wehrmacht, Marine, Luftwaffe and Waffen SS as well as all Party Organisations of the Third Reich is forbidden if used for propaganda purposes - the converse argument being that these impressions are legally allowed if used for the purposes exempt by this law.

We look at this hobby from an international perspective and welcome joined events across borders.

The overcoming of borders in the name of international understanding plays a key part for us in this hobby. Because of this we can not and will not distance ourselves from foreign groups that have chosen to do an impression that might be morally questionable in Germany.

We welcome the opening of AFRA to all european groups and their reenactors and consider a european governing body as an essential necessity.

At our group´s annual meeting which will take place in three weeks time, I will request all members of my group to join AFRA!

Respectfully,

Frank

[Pummelchen]

Mit möglichst originalgetreuen Uniformen und Ausrüstungsgegenständen sollen historische Schlachten nachgestellt werden. Der Chef des NRW-Verfassungsschutzes, Dr. Hartwig Möller warnt: "Wer sich mit der "Waffen-SS" ausgerechnet die Kampfeinheit zum Vorbild nimmt, die die nationalsozialistische Herrenmenschen-Ideologie in die Tat umzusetzen hatte, gerät automatisch in den Verdacht, der Ideologie des "Dritten Reiches" verbunden zu sein."

Die aktiven Teilnehmer treten überwiegend in den Uniformen der früheren "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" auf. Bei "Darstellungsübungen", die im benachbarten Ausland stattfinden, ist das Tragen von SS-Uniformen für diese Mitglieder meist obligatorisch. In Uniformen der ehemaligen Waffen-SS spielen Personen aus Deutschland und anderen Ländern Schlachten des zweiten Weltkriegs nach. Dazu mahnt Innenminister Behrens: "SS-Uniformen sind kein Spielzeug für Erwachsene! Wer dies tut, identifiziert sich mit der auf Hitler persönlich vereidigten Elite-Truppe und dokumentiert dies auch nach außen."

Hier der ganze Artikel: http://www.im.nrw.de/pe/pm2001/pm2001/news_1296.htm

Hoover writes

This is a warning against SS-reenactors, given by the authorities.

As usual the written word is open for interpretation, especially if a part of a text is taken out of context.
The essence of the article is in the title:

Waffen bei Rechtsextremisten in NRW beschlagnahmt - Verfassungsschutz warnt vor missbräuchlichem "Re-Enactment"
- Behrens: SS-Uniformen kein Spielzeug für Erwachsene


TRANSLATION:
Weapons confiscated from right wingers in North - Rhine Westphalia
The Verfassungsschutz is warning against the misuse of "Re-Enactment"
Behrens: SS uniforms are not a toy for grown ups

Kind regards,
Beate

[Bill Medland]

@ Ohmhagen,

I welcome your new structure, be it an Official Body, Association or whatever form it becomes.... it is the way forward!

I have had a meeting with the D.C.L.I. Reenactment group this afternoon and we would welcome the chance to join.
We are only a group of five people, but you have our full backing, I know a Dutch group who will also welcome such a project.

Super, we have built our numbers up to 100 already!

Cheers, Bill.

[Hoffman Grink]

Oh God!!!!

Thank you Ohmhagen..... I am humbled - progressive people have much to endure - We over here have found that out.

Sorry for the Party Political Broadcast here so if you think you might be offended - look away now.

In my experienced opinion - what is needed is an Association in each member European Country (e.g. Deutsche Re-enactoren Verein - DRV) TO set up under a common model - I don't know if anyone else has a model to offer - I would advise you examine several before making a choice - I'm sure Jon of WARS can demonstrate his - NARes might speak to you (but I doubt it) WWIILHA etc. (other re-enactment options are available) Obviously I would like you to consider ours....... Anyway -
Set up National Associations - then when established (I believe in Deutschland you have a one year probationary period before being recognised) we form a European Reenactment Federation which can come together once or twice a year and share good practice, deliver reports and encourage co-operation and exchange. I speak for AFRA when I say we will support this wholeheartedly as it encompasses what we want to achieve.

If this were done there is a conduit for reenactors to gain information and guidance from the authorities, a common focus for activities and a guide that does not control (I've already said control is not the aim) but guides, possibly regulates and certainly protects the interest of the community. I will make a bold statement and say anyone who would not see this done has only self interest at heart and no interest at all for the future or development of the hobby.

BACK TO FALLINGBOSTEL
I say support Kevin to contact the V Schutze - invite them to come along and monitor the event. Work with them to put on a satisfactory event within German Law and at the end - Sit with them and examine it. This will set a precedent and form a test case. Someone has to do it and if Kevin does - for me he will be the Hero of the German WWII Reenactment scene. this is fundamentally NOT about SS. This is about dispelling the lies and supposition put about by a minority purporting to speak for a majority who have no real inkling about what will actually happen. If (and I have no doubt it will) Fallingbostel is successful its effect will be twofold.
1 to establish what is and what is not permissible at an event under The German COnstitution.
2 to silence the eternal naysayers who stifle the hobby in Germany.
Who, with a honest heart would not support this?

The underlying reason for the opposition to this event is that Germans do not want Auslanders coming in to "Their events" For years they have enjoyed ours here in England so what is the problem? Someone makes a brave offer and a new event and massive efforts are made to disrupt and crush it. I can not understand this..........

Fallingbostel must succeed. I have confidence in and support Kevin. The DRV must be born - I have confidence in and support Frank(Ohmhagen) on this also.

End Of Transmission.

[Reich Crispies]

No, sorry. The German reenactors who did the very bad postings were upset because of the rule that SS will be allowed on the non-public days.

No one has said this. This was put forward as a possibility. No more, no less.

That is not their goal.

No public to condemn, no media to photograph them, no logical reason to object to standing in a room with foreigners in similar uniforms. No way they can be "blamed" or "associated" yet still not thier goal?
See what I mean? I have no idea what the problem is so have difficulty sympathising.

Perhaps there is someone else on the German forum I could talk to?
Someone who might actually listen?
Someone a little more descriptive?

I personally have no rhyme nor reason to want, by word, deed, action or inaction to damage the German scene (Yes, sounds a little like the third law. Sue me).
I agree that the German re-enactors are apprehensive with regard to W-SS impressions. That these may be viewed as subversive and might damage a small yet growing scene.
That it might be too soon to introduce this. Yes, Yes. I agree. I understand that you feel this way.
But what Frank refuses to see, acknowledge or is blatantly ignoring is that this will be done by foriegn nationals in the grounds of a museum in a former SS barracks. This would always make it easier to deny, contain, condemn any fall out (none that I can see) that may fall on your laps.

The answer is, if you dont like it, dont attend. Perhaps this is how the "Frank's" within the German scene should address this issue. Just say that "big boys came and did it then ran away".
Historically, always a good excuse

[pupgreen]

Good evening..
right i spoke to two very nice ladies today from the BFVIN HANNOVER and also the police in the local area,SOLTAU
-first the bfv.i stated what i was trying to acheive ie a military weekend for veterens and ,,i used the term,,, nutters -because i must be mad to want to continue with this.
I stated the concerns of the german reenactors, and that of the ..europeans,, i also said they should read this forum,, which im sure they already do anyway,THE RULES ARE::
NO SWASTICAS OR HAKENKREUTZ WILL BE WORN OVER THE WEEKEND-NO WAFFEN SS RUNES-CUFFBANDS ARM EAGLES WITH SWASTICAS:NO NAZI FLAGS-POLITICAL OR NPD:-
ON THE PUBLIC DAY SHE EVEN SUGGESTED ::NO GERMAN REENACTORS ARE THERE::: SO::THATS A NOTHER BRIDGE TO CROSS::::IN CASE IT UPSETS SOMEONE BUT AS WEVE DONE IT BEFORE;; IM SURE WE CAN RUN WITH THAT::
SO YOU WAFFEN SS GUYS AND WEHRMACHT MUST COVER INSIGNIA;; SHE EVEN MENTIONED BELT BUCKLES--

I ALSO INVITED THEM TO COME ALONG:: AND THE POLICE AS WELL: AND THAT IF THEY WANTED A FULL-PARTICIPENTS LIST:::ID HAND IT OVER:THATS YOUR OFFICERS DESISION BUT EACH ATTENDY WILL BE ON THE MILITARY COMPUTER WHEN YOU BOOK IN:IF YOU DONT REGISTER YOU DONT COME IN:



SO I EXPECT YOUR ALL START DIGGING HOLES NOW--IF YOU WISH TO COME- I SUGGEST YOU THINK ABOUT IT:AT THE END OF THE DAY-IF YOUR -JUST REENACTING -YOUVE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE:
IT WILL STILL BE A GREAT WEEKEND TO GET TO MEET EACH OTHER BUT AS I SAID;; IF YOU CANT WONT BE FRIENDLY ILL DO WITH OUT YOU AND JUST DO THE ALLIED SIDE:--IT WILL BE A PRETTY BORING BATTLE-BUT ILL SAVE MONEY ON BEIR:
ANY QUESTIONS;; PLEASE GET IN TOUCH;; AND LETS TRY AND WORK TOGETHER::

[Bill Medland]

Hi Kevin,

My group will be coming and you may pass our names and details on to the Verfassungschutz, no problems at all

Cheers, Bill.......... hurra off to Fallingbostel!

[Pummelchen]

Thank you so much Kevin for your effort and time in sorting out details
with the Verfassungsschutz and your local Polizei - it is much appreciated!

pupgreen wrote:

THE RULES ARE::
NO SWASTICAS OR HAKENKREUTZ WILL BE WORN OVER THE WEEKEND-NO
WAFFEN SS RUNES-CUFFBANDS ARM EAGLES WITH SWASTICAS
SO YOU WAFFEN SS GUYS AND WEHRMACHT MUST COVER INSIGNIA

This illustrates that Wehrmacht and Waffen SS are exactly the same in the eyes of the
Verfassungsschutz when it comes to reenactment

This ends a long debate for me as the Waffen SS can now be reenacted in Germany
the same way as the Wehrmacht - there is NO difference when it comes to reenacting,
something Bill and I have always said when the topic was up for debate.

That means that in Germany reenactors can wear peadot without a problem as it is worn
without insignia at all.

Kind regards,
Beate

[Hoffman Grink]

I personally have no rhyme nor reason to want, by word, deed, action or inaction to damage the German scene (Yes, sounds a little like the third law. Sue me).
I agree that the German re-enactors are apprehensive with regard to W-SS impressions. That these may be viewed as subversive and might damage a small yet growing scene.
That it might be too soon to introduce this. Yes, Yes. I agree. I understand that you feel this way.
But what Frank refuses to see, acknowledge or is blatantly ignoring is that this will be done by foriegn nationals in the grounds of a museum in a former SS barracks. This would always make it easier to deny, contain, condemn any fall out (none that I can see) that may fall on your laps.

The answer is, if you dont like it, dont attend. Perhaps this is how the "Frank's" within the German scene should address this issue. Just say that "big boys came and did it then ran away".
Historically, always a good excuse

Good post..... clear cut and common sense - Sadly to be ignored.... but do these people count anyway? Why are we paying lip service to them?
Kevin Greenhalgh is the gaffer - Let's talk to him and see what HE wants. We will help him achieve it - along with the good Germans - and some Dutch etc.

Edit - there was a long time span between me starting this post and posting it - real world - family issues etc. So it is a little behind - Having just read Kevin's post about BVS - good on him........ Let's make it happen instead of giving in. If there is a concession to me had - let's have it.

[Hoover]

I PM ed to Reich crispies.

[Mooyman]

This illustrates that Wehrmacht and Waffen SS are exactly the same in the eyes of the
Verfassungsschutz when it comes to reenactment [/quote]

And that is the most important statement from this topic.
Something we all believed in...

Good work Kev.

[Bill Medland]

This illustrates that Wehrmacht and Waffen SS are exactly the same in the eyes of the
Verfassungsschutz when it comes to reenactment

And that is the most important statement from this topic. Something we all believed in...

Good work Kev.

Yes, this has changed the situation in Germany well beyond this one event and well into the future.

Sadly, on Facebook, one or two German reenactors have removed their names from the attendance list

Cheers, Bill.