Swynnerton Debrief/Feedback thread

[Salerno43]

As Paul says, its people that need to change their views.

I think that the lack of exposure to Pete's brand of LH gigs and the already mentioned declining number of any type of battle is the root cause.

Secondly the fact that some paticipants ONLY experience is during things like Beltring and Detling.

I'm going to generalise a bit here so bear with me.

Axis lost, so it's in an Axis reenactors soul to except defeat off the bat.
Allies won as we know, as such your average Allied reenactor expects to go "full term"
and make it to VE day.

Anyway...

Medics, my main reason for them is that I did Longmoor a while back and it had umpires. They worked fairly well - but destroy the look of the action, just like if you had someone milling about in jeans and trainers it kills the feel of it - stone dead.

Medics are Hi vis (armband + Helmet) and don't spoil the look - that is my rational.
Anyone doing this job needs to be of strong character, I agrued with the one at Longmoor to my eternal shame

[KDF]

The "problem" with WW2 re-enactment is that unlike other peroid groups we dont "take" character/(role)play the actual era.We dress in the clothes,carry the weapons etc.With that narrow view of not wanting to change and turn into a "game"(wrong term I know) then using medics as referees aint going to work....The mentality needs to change from us all!
For me the hobby seems to have become even more about pleasing organisers and bickering amongst ourselves.I would love to do less public events and do more private do`s.There are some dark age groups etc that dont do public events and just do weekends in total (or as near dammit) period gear.
No doubt I`m in for stick about this....but would like to see if this discussion can resolve some of the problems etc.Or have I caused more problems?
Regards to you all,
Keith

[LAH650]

[geoffpara]

Does anybody know how the Wehrmacht undertook and controlled their training/battle exercises? Did they use umpires/medics/specific written instructions/free-play etc? Perhaps there is something there we can learn from?

Geoff

[warren]

I can see only 2 ways this can work - either radio linked umpires and clued up NCO's or people getting hit for real.

Maybe private battle should be scripted at least pre-determined scenario level - ie you're tasked to attack an objective. The umpires tell you (and the defenders) that you have a time limit in which to capture that objective or you lose it.
If the attackers get within (accurate) grenade throwing distance - i would say it's 'game over' for the defenders - but i guess most of us do that anyway. Btw - does SWB stand for 'sorry we're bulletproof'?

If the 'clued up' NCO's / umpires think won't work then perhaps the answer is to 'go airsoft' for private battles, cos otherwise people won't ACCEPT they've been hit. Could 'dust goggles' could be used for eye protection?

anyway - i will play the game whatever is decided and i guess those taking part in this discussion will to - it's down to NCO's and Officers to control their men objectively.

[KDF]

It does not matter what "timeline" events is actually run...the rules of any event need to be clear and quite simple.before anyone starts to plan stuff.

The use of refs/umpires is only needed if groups or indivduals cant/wont work to the rules.I can see heated discussions about this! :)Otherwise they are not needed.It would still not be right for medics to be crossing over the lines to tell folk what to do....I know they did dash about the (western) battle fronts without always being shot...but....

I seem to have more questions than answers.....Ummmm

[Hoffman Grink]

Kurt - One fo my ideas WAS to have "artillery" Only in a safe, ordely controlled environment can you do this. Only with a team of dedicated people prepared to work and lay lines etc. not sod off and battle can you do this.

If two sides, say at the bridge at Swynnerton for example.... were arrayd against each other..... The Brits int eh positions they occupied..... The Germans laying flat in the fields facing..... The controlling "officer" gives a signla and the pyrotechnics kick in on and around and aove rht ebridge - Int' the positions, Smoke is detonated and the area becomes "confusion".... The SS then get across the bridges properly under cover of bangs and smoke...... And the firefight is short and shapr because the Brits, having held them off for an hour, know they haev just been tatered...... Result.. and everyone gets a buzz......


A convoy of Allied Vehicles travels a route. The germans are dug in either side..... Suddenly left and right, explosions start to go off along the road. The front vehicle, its driver briefed to do so, Swings across the road and pops a large black smoke, signifying his vehicle has been hit. All the other drivers know the plan and stop. The Allied troops task is to return fire and organise pushing the stircken vehicle off the road..... This is organised and the germans remain static pouring fire into the column...... The vehicle is removed, the column remounts under fire and escapes.....

These could both work with one drawback. They rely on intelligence and co-operation..... we'd be the soft twats laying the pyro, firing the pyro and clearing up the pyro. everyone else woudl come, participate and buitch about it when it was over....

The point being - That experience (or the two described) coudl be far better than silly Cowboys and Indians.... which is the idle and easy way to burn brass of a weekend. But unless someone else does it....4/5 of groups out there will never experience it. because they can't or won't do it themselves. I can tell you NOW how much a gig like that woudl cost in terms of pyro... I bet no one else can..... we can try to re-invent the wheel forever... but whilst we have got Luddites such as the one who wnet around tossing flashbangs around at Swynnerton expressly against instructions.... we won't move forwards a foot. talk is cheap. Actions stand tallest.
Andy W - Loads of good ideas.... Get a venue mate.... write a script, charge a fee and invite us all up. we'll make it work.... What's the date?

[warren]

does my suggestion ...

If the attackers get within (accurate) grenade throwing distance - i would say it's 'game over' for the defenders

...make me a luddite? wot's a luddite?

Well at least Paul's just agreed that scripted scenario's are probably one way it would work.

[Jon Das Reich]

As i see it our main problem is how one should participate in any living history weekend, of course 'calling shots' needs stamping out, it spoils the atmosphere in an instant and I hate it myself. But what do we replace it with?
I agree that running to a script is the best solution the more structure the better, but the problem I see is that we don't fight the battles in the same way as was done during WW2 in the first place!; i.e. using Artillery to shell the in-trenched opposition and then following up with shock troops armed with grenades! I realise H&S won't allow this. But tying to re-create battles without these ingredients gives us a floor in any plan before you even start to create one!

This is my point exactly.
When we we attacking TFH at the cross roads at Sywennerton i said to a couple of guys i guess in reality they would of called in a mortar or artillery barrage and wouldnt of even fired a shot.

I can see only 2 ways this can work - either radio linked umpires and clued up NCO's or people getting hit for real.

same with myself

Ok more thoughts to the mix,

As we all know we have a choice, to attend or not to attend.

This goes for battles and public events, they have rules and regs. we make choices; this is just one more choice.

Do you want an event run to a script, with tight kit regulations, with managed casualties?

Or

An event to which you just turn up and play.

Simple… ok maybe not that simple.

Offer 1.

German forces:
Spring 1945 Germany is collapsing troops are in disarray, units of both the western allies and communist hordes threaten the Fatherland, a mixed Kmafgruppen holdout; orders come for a counter attack…

Allied forces:
Spring 1945 our troops are pushing the Germans back across Europe the war will soon be over, a pause in the advance has been called, aggressive patrolling in now the norm…

The Red Army:
Comrade the war is ours the fascist invader is running, we will be the first unit into Berlin….

Use Swnnerton, each ‘group’ has objectives each group has a ‘HQ’ (enough buildings) we live in the field…

Or

Offer 2.

WW2, all welcome, we will see who turns up and play it by ear. Modern camping allowed.

We have a choice to move on or stand still.

Time to choose, or maybe not…

Andy i do think your post is abit unfair mate every battle ive been to theres been a plan and maps and groups given orders on where and what they should be doing.
The discussion here isnt about whats better blatt or living history as its been mentioned before both have there places within the hobby you pay your money you take your chance.
Whats been disscuss i hope is how we can change for the better how the battling part can be inproved how w take hits etc. as we all agree the shot calling is old hat but seems to be the only way it works at the moment ebven thou we dont like the fact ( reminds me of when we played arny as kids bang bang your dead etc) and this is what we have to move on from but to find a way foreward for the battles as we have for displays, uniforms, kit etc.

[LAH650]

[Salerno43]

SWB stand for 'sorry we're bulletproof'?

That genuinely tickled me.

But in reality the fault lies with whoever is running the group - which goes nicely in a circle back to whats already been said about NCO's being critical and not the poor ranker.

Maybe if groups badged up those who can actaully lead in combat/read a map/whatever rather than those who own the "insert object of choice". WE'd be better off.

[Hoffman Grink]

Really respectful and non confrontational question here for Andy

"Who do you think I talked to?"

I've said - my input has ceased.... I'm a taker now..... I want to see people stand on their own merits and produce.... My input to Swynnerton was next to zero..... Skillman and Reeves made that particular globe spin....

Spanhoe......
Trenches..... you got the info from me. (I actually got it from KDF)
Digger - I asked him to dig "here, here and here.... join this up to this..... make this square etc."
Scenario - listened to CD then went into bossy bastard mode and made it happen.... key skill - "taking charge"
Risk Assessment - me
Method Report - me
Rehearsals - Same again - me, bossy bastard, do this, do it again, do that.... put it together - run through... run through again...... et al
Arms, ammo - I ordered from Vickers.....
Fee - I negotiated with Steve and appropriated accordingly.
Pyro - I specced it, ordered (built some of it) collected it, delivered it, laid it, wired it (with a damned good team I might add) fired it and cleared it.
AFRA and TFH had a jolly good time..... Not looking for medals here but you must admit..... What's in it for me???? What do I get out of all that? A warm glow inside...

I want to see results.... I want someone to say to AFRA - Come along to this show. Tell us what weapons you need and how much ammo.... we just need you to do this, be here, die at this point...... we're doing the hiring, the pyro, the scenario..... the risk assessment, the method report. Just tell us how many lads you got coming.... Oh - and heres a couple of hundred quid for the club kitty. Ta ever so much.
The nearest we ever get to that is Beltring where our mates the SBG put on a huge battle which is the BIGGEST headache of the year for them... They give us a part in it because they know they can leave it to us..... we come, get our toys from Steve, ride out, fire some shots and get blown up or whatever.... job's a good un... back to our beer and burgers.... - well - usually I run around a bit and help Glen or someone but that's my nature and my way of saying thanks.... but it's the nearest we ever get to a breeze... I'm hopeful though - one day....

[Hoffman Grink]

But in reality the fault lies with whoever is running the group - which goes nicely in a circle back to whats already been said about NCO's being critical and not the poor ranker.

Maybe if groups badged up those who can actaully lead in combat/read a map/whatever rather than those who own the "insert object of choice". WE'd be better off.

Spot on Sal.
Man at the top needs to lead... be an example (we all have Maglites now)
And the people appointed to wear a badge need to know they must work to keep it.... If they don't someone else needs to be given the role.... But woe betide the leader who tries to debadge a member..... "I'm not taking my "rank" off" Yeah - like - they are entitled to it? YOU'RE NOT REALLY A GENERAL SON!!!!!

I'm leaving - I'm going to "insert group" - They'll let me be a Sturmwinkelfuhrer!!!! Better still - I'm starting up me own group - Ok - pick an identity.... one that's not been done yet..... Albanian River Police!!!!! One of the lads has got a boat!