Swynnerton Debrief/Feedback thread

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Gott Mit Uns
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Post by Gott Mit Uns »

Can I just say - in regards to umpires.

I turned up to Swynerton having organised a small team of people ready to do their bit and umpire Axis troops who were "shot". The system was all planned out that we would issue "tickets" (replica wound cards) to the "dead" - who would then proceed to retire back to the HQ and hand in their ticket at the Truppenverbandplatz 'registry' desk (where a member of the team was sat), write their name and unit down and be allocated 10 minutes "breaktime" to brew up etc. Once enough people had built up or their time had elapsed they could be sent out in mini battle groups to rejoin their units. We were also on-site with several first aid kits and extra bottled water etc incase anyone fell ill.

The problems we faced:
Groups werent in on the deal - because of unforseen circomestances and through no ones falt.
Not enough people to umpire.

The fact is that re-enactor medics are in short supply, you need more non-combatants in order to umpire a large event such as the Nat. Bat. And there was only 3 of us. It soon became clear early on the Saterday morning that it just wasnt going to work and we went our own seperate ways intergrating into our original groups.
Ive written and spoken to those in the 'medical' group (a big thank you to the SBG, you guys came up trumps) and all of us would be more than happy to umpire in the future if we are needed. BUT - everyone needs to be singing from the same page.

I think PD's idea is equally as good as an umpire idea, and I am leaving it in the hands of the organisers to decide which way they want to go in the future. If they want umpires then we are here, if not, then we will be participating in the event in a different role - with our groups. :D
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Salerno43
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Post by Salerno43 »

Fwbl Dollman wrote:
Salerno43 wrote:
But in reality the fault lies with whoever is running the group - which goes nicely in a circle back to whats already been said about NCO's being critical and not the poor ranker.

Maybe if groups badged up those who can actaully lead in combat/read a map/whatever rather than those who own the "insert object of choice". WE'd be better off.
Spot on Sal.
Man at the top needs to lead... be an example (we all have Maglites now)
And the people appointed to wear a badge need to know they must work to keep it.... If they don't someone else needs to be given the role.... But woe betide the leader who tries to debadge a member..... "I'm not taking my "rank" off" Yeah - like - they are entitled to it? YOU'RE NOT REALLY A GENERAL SON!!!!!

I'm leaving - I'm going to "insert group" - They'll let me be a Sturmwinkelfuhrer!!!! Better still - I'm starting up me own group - Ok - pick an identity.... one that's not been done yet..... Albanian River Police!!!!! One of the lads has got a boat!
Very rare is the demoted reenactor.

I can think of only a few.

Don't mention a new impression like ARP, Dave will want the uniform.

Back to the crunch, and I've been there (apologies to all Mighty Boosh fans). Basically whoever is going to put on the next big do, make sure the group leaders are on board and make sure info is cascaded to all ranks. Assumption blah blah blah. Oh and get excellent leutnants, like PD, Marsh, JDR, RAU, etc and you'll be halfway there.
geoffpara

Post by geoffpara »

An interesting discussion point about leadership and the same problem the local footbal or rugby faces in who is going to be the team captain, the bloke who knows little about playing the game but is an excellent administrator or the good player who motivates on the field but isn't very good at doing all the things required in the background. Most clubs I've played for split the roles. Picking up from what's being said does this also explain why a number of units appear to be a bit top heavy in officers etc in that there is no demotion, and perhaps recognition for contributions is shown by promotion?

Being the best leaders in battles doesn't necessarily equate with the being the best unit leaders, just as the best unit leaders aren't always the best leaders in battles.

Perhaps if we could start again we'd restructure our groups differently. I think what you are talking about is called functional leadership where you use the best people for the task or role and not necessarily because they have the seniority, be it from rank or time in the group, but I'd suspect that's a non-starter.

So what is the answer? Perhaps the event organisers could select whom they believe would make good battle leaders, not necessarily unit leaders, and invite groups to particpate under their command in a similar fashion to what was planned at Swynnerton. Might need to police some of those groups that have a tendency to start the day with you, then the first contact and they're off on their own private battles all over the place.

Who are those good leaders? This leads onto another topic previously raised by Paul about training, perhaps by establishing an Axis Battle School to give the right levels of competence to battle leaders? You could use that to identify the leaders to chose from for the larger scale events.

Picking up on what I think was a previous idea of Paul's what about peer group assessment of the participating units over a range of criteria.

Think although some of this has merits it's more of a medium term aim as it would need a lot of support to get it started particularly from people like Spence and Paul.

Geoff
Hoffman Grink

Post by Hoffman Grink »

I'd turn up as a Grenadier tomorrow should the scenario merit it.
Reason?
IT'S NOT REAL!!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE KAFFEE

(But that's a whole different debate)
KDF
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Post by KDF »

PD correct! There was a thing happen at Swynners that only 4 folk really saw.A chap travels about 200 miles and forgets his ID...so he comes back to the carpark to get it.He then asks ( a peroid vehicle driver) if he can be taken upto the armourer so he`s not going to be tolate for his group moving out....( it would 15 mins tops to do this and bring him back...).He says great...I`m going to tell my squad leader where I`m going.So while Im nattering to another chap he comes back swearing...." what`s up?" says the chap I`m talking to....I have been told to go home...I`m to late to join in! The chappie is told by us both , to go join in with another similar group..."nah, I`m f##king off home" gets in car and drives away(another 200 miles)!
The upshot was this from the chappie stood next to me...cause I was saying some not so nice comments like I`d tell his leader to F##k right off...."when you take on the stars or pips on your shoulder you have to look after your men...."

If that chap had walked 3 paces from his house to the event ,never mind 400 miles round trip I still would not have treated him like that!It does not matter if you run a group and you are an "officer" or NCO or have no rank you dont treat folk like that.Stars and rank on your arm/shoulder mean F##k all really...you can buy any badge from anywhere but so as PD says...it aint real.
Folk like that must make it difficult for anyone to actually take rank/group leaders seriously.

oh yeh, no names or even which side/group etc are mentioned...dont wish to be sued...just something I saw as anexample of how not to do it?
Rant over...:)
K
Stigroadie

Post by Stigroadie »

A good rant though and an opinion I share. Whilst leaders need to lead there are some who do take themselves far too seriously. They dont tend to be axis though.
Wilder Feger
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Post by Wilder Feger »

Salerno43 wrote:Maybe if groups badged up those who can actaully lead in combat/read a map/whatever rather than those who own the "insert object of choice". WE'd be better off.
Can we do that??!! Is that allowed?? :shock: :mrgreen:
I dunno... sounds like it might make too much sense. What are you thinking, man!! :wink:

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paulmfjr2
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Post by paulmfjr2 »

As a unit leader I see my job as a coordinator more than anything else - there are men in the group who are better in the field than me - but dont have the 'historical details', there are men in the group that know their German drill, orders better than me - but are to focused, their are guys in the group who know their kit and equipment better than me - but they lack the 'in the field' mentality. My job is to bring all of these guys together to 'share the wealth' amongst the group so that we are all on an even keal. As a unit leader is should be at the head of the group in combat giving direction to the men and taking command - this is coming with time and I think the 'team' is starting to work well together - the only disapointing thing is (and this did happen at swyners and to be fair was the turning point in the event for us) after spending many hours avoiding the allies to try and find Arnhem bridge, and then approach it tactically to find ourselves in striking distance to be then swamped by the mass horde of German troops running through the Brit positions like some kind of frenzied Russian charge. At this point one of my members turned to me and said why should I f****ng bother!!!!

Sugestion - all unit heads share mobile numbers for events - HQ on both sides can log unit group positions on a map - then can advise units heads (both allied and axis) of what is going on - example in the situation above if the german charge hadn't of happened we could have approached the brit para's along the back road where the Vickers was dug in and attempted to take out the crew with sniper fire (we did have 2 men with scoped weapons) I could have passed this action onto HQ (spencer)whio could have then passed it onto the head shed for the Brits who could have allocated appropriate casualties in his group. - Just a thought.
Last edited by paulmfjr2 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pug42
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Post by Pug42 »

In actual fact the 'massed charge' was Spence's suggestion as the Brits on the other side were totally bulletproof despite being hugely outnumbered, and he was a bit hacked off with it.

I thought it was pretty silly myself, (despite being in the rush) but what else could we do??? Some form of communications like mobiles for NCO's would hopefully prevent it happening again?
David

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Salerno43
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Post by Salerno43 »

Yeah I have to take full responsibility for that Paul.

Basically I had a parle under truce with the Brit AB head shed - between us we decided that we'd take the bridge - then they would re-take it.
Full assault was mounted, but the idea was that we'd obviously suffer huge casualties and destroy the three positions just over the bridge.

In the event, out of the three assault groups everyone left it to someone else to become a casualty and it didn't look right, let's say.

I had no idea you were in the wings there Paul otherwise we'd have hit from both sides. My bad.
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paulmfjr2
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Post by paulmfjr2 »

Its all down to comms -on all sides I think that that is the way forward - to mention a point that Geoff said earlier about umpires - how about the Unit leaders in the field 'Umpire' there own group, this could work as they are ultimately responsible for how the group work in the field and at events. This may lead to a lack of trigger time for the c/o's but thats the cost of leadership.
les hearn
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Post by les hearn »

regarding coms in the field

i have been manufacturing germal signals backpacks "boxes"
they are in perfect visual order to act as radio packs for that authentic look
if i was to make four of five such boxes each unit in the field could be issued with such and then use a mobile phone as the sections signals opps.
but stress only the signal opperator to have the phone as comms
and only a certain amount of numbers will be issued
as in the people who have the abbility to listen(signallers numbers and command only )

any messaages will have to go through him tho
thus giving a little more realistic comms in the field.
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geoffpara

Post by geoffpara »

Might be worth asking Gerry, the FJR vet in FJR2 and who was signals, what the allocation of these radios were. From my discussions with him it wasn't as low down the miltary structure as we might want it to operate. If that's the case it's down to the discrete use of mobiles. Alternatively, can we make more use of flares, even in daylight, as the Germans did as a means of signalling? This would require more detailed orders being given and places a greater pressure on the competence of group leaders though.

Geoff
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