rank system

General reenactment discussion

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snapper
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Re: rank system

Post by snapper »

From what I have read in various memoirs, the ranks of Oberschütze and Gefreiter were parallel promotions based on experience and time of service. One veteran writes that he had spent 6 months with his unit after basic training and would normally have been eligible for promotion to Gefreiter, but not having passed all the required training tests, he was promoted to Oberschütze instead.

There is another parallel to this in the NCO ranks, regarding the Unterfeldwebel, who was a longer serving Unteroffizier who had not been selected for promotion to Feldwebel.

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Bill Medland
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Re: rank system

Post by Bill Medland »

Yes, there were several ranks and positions that were issued on a time served basis.

Some positions or duties that sound like a rank but are not ranks at all, for example "Spiess"
( two "Piston Rings" on both arms, were like role of the British CSM in many repects)
This position could be held by three or four of the SNCO rank grades.

I am Spiess within our group, "Mother of the Company", with the rank of Hauptscharführer
but I could still have the Spiess function with a rank higher or lower.

Of course there are a lot of trade groups or positions that can ONLY be filled by SNCO grades,
so some ranks will be justified by the impression chosen, i.e. Feldgendarmerie.

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Mikkel
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Re: rank system

Post by Mikkel »

dbloge wrote:Mikkel - I like the idea of having NCO's drop to enlisted when attendance warrants it, but that would require NCO's to have.............at least 2 tunics :shock:
Haha, yes. Plus two guns, and lots of extra field equipment :lol:

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Reich Crispies
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Re: rank system

Post by Reich Crispies »

Mikkel - I like the idea of having NCO's drop to enlisted when attendance warrants it, but that would require NCO's to have.............at least 2 tunics
I do it all the time :wink:
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wolfsangel
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Re: rank system

Post by wolfsangel »

Reich Crispies wrote:
Mikkel - I like the idea of having NCO's drop to enlisted when attendance warrants it, but that would require NCO's to have.............at least 2 tunics
I do it all the time :wink:
Same here Neil,

I prefer to go about as a grunt at shows most of the time. If we have a particular need for an NCO then I wear the bling but generally I don't want it
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Sheikh Al Stranghi
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Re: rank system

Post by Sheikh Al Stranghi »

snapper wrote:From what I have read in various memoirs, the ranks of Oberschütze and Gefreiter were parallel promotions based on experience and time of service. One veteran writes that he had spent 6 months with his unit after basic training and would normally have been eligible for promotion to Gefreiter, but not having passed all the required training tests, he was promoted to Oberschütze instead.

There is another parallel to this in the NCO ranks, regarding the Unterfeldwebel, who was a longer serving Unteroffizier who had not been selected for promotion to Feldwebel.
That is correct, OG and Gfr were basically the same.

dbloge
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Re: rank system

Post by dbloge »

Sheikh Al Stranghi wrote:
snapper wrote:From what I have read in various memoirs, the ranks of Oberschütze and Gefreiter were parallel promotions based on experience and time of service. One veteran writes that he had spent 6 months with his unit after basic training and would normally have been eligible for promotion to Gefreiter, but not having passed all the required training tests, he was promoted to Oberschütze instead.

There is another parallel to this in the NCO ranks, regarding the Unterfeldwebel, who was a longer serving Unteroffizier who had not been selected for promotion to Feldwebel.
That is correct, OG and Gfr were basically the same.
you mean Unteroffizier and Unterfeldwebel right?


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Sheikh Al Stranghi
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Re: rank system

Post by Sheikh Al Stranghi »

No, obergrenadier and gefreiter. They are parallel ranks, given after 6 months of service. Obergrenadier if someone has done his service in a normal way and shows experience, Gefreiter if someone seems to have potential for leadership or another more specialized task like MG gunner. One is not much more than the other.

dbloge
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Re: rank system

Post by dbloge »

Sheikh Al Stranghi wrote:No, obergrenadier and gefreiter. They are parallel ranks, given after 6 months of service. Obergrenadier if someone has done his service in a normal way and shows experience, Gefreiter if someone seems to have potential for leadership or another more specialized task like MG gunner. One is not much more than the other.
Got the abbreviations mixed up on that one.


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Zoepf
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Re: rank system

Post by Zoepf »

Mikkel wrote:
dbloge wrote:Mikkel - I like the idea of having NCO's drop to enlisted when attendance warrants it, but that would require NCO's to have.............at least 2 tunics :shock:
Haha, yes. Plus two guns, and lots of extra field equipment :lol:
I am a junker on our Stammrolle. If I have 20 soldaten in the field, I wear my actual rank. If I only have a squad, I go as a sergeant. If I have lower numbers I go as a private.

Now, I'm not speaking for everyone, but I would assume most NCOS reenacting probably owned a k98 that they still keep along with their smg. Dressing down as a rifleman is not hard.

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gdfuseddie
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Re: rank system

Post by gdfuseddie »

The number of Oberschutzen and Gefreiters in a squad can vary quite a lot, as they are not actual ranks. They are differing grade levels within the rank of Schutze, which reflect experience, knowledge and time served. This way it is easy to for a commander or NCO who is not familiar with the Schutzen standing in front of him, he can gauge which ones are pretty fresh from training and which ones are more experienced, just by looking at their uniform. I have seen some listings of original GD Gruppe where there was only one Schutze, with the rest of the men being Oberschutzen and Gefreiters.

There are other 'ranks' within the structure of the German Army which are not actually ranks, but grade levels within a given rank. One problem many people have when they look at German ranks is that when they see a chevron on the arm of a soldaten they assume it is the equivalent of Corporal, which is incorrect, as they are actually only experienced private soldiers.
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Schäfer
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Re: rank system

Post by Schäfer »

Tanaka wrote:
So what are the criteria to earn a rank in your group?
Easy, if i think you deserve one you get one.

We're quite handy to have a fairly realistic age group in our group, we have 2 members over 26 who are the officers, usually on 1 at each event, the rest of the lads are 25 down to 17 and are EM, i've been doing it the longest so i've got the NCO rank. Has worked well so far.
Some older guys don't like the fact if they join they have to be the same rank as a 17 year old but they're quickly told if they don't like it they don't have to join
We've had a few prospective members try to join us and wanting to be Kaleu's or Admirals straight away! :lol:
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Hauser
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Re: rank system

Post by Hauser »

Would it not work ...say, if you held the rank or qualification out of re-enacting, to be able to bring it over to the group ? if he can prove the qualification ? taking the analogy that say, you had a doctor join, would you mark him down as a infantry grunt ? I know you cannot have a squad of high ranking solders, so just rotate the rank around, say show by show ? or by every say 4 shows ? or a season ? keeps everyone on there toes, and gives everyone a chance to experience a rank ? and most importantly cuts out resentment.

Also
I cannot see why the group organizer / owner needs to carry the highest rank,

The most chest medals and bling don't make him the leader! He might own the group ? but is he a leader of men ?... who they look up to ? give the job to the best man.....And you know who he is, in all of your groups ! :) :)
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gdfuseddie
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Re: rank system

Post by gdfuseddie »

In most groups the person in charge is the one who does most of the work behind the scenes with organising and running things. This is why they are in charge and generally the fact that they are prepared to do all of what is needed to make it all work on the day makes them a leader. Many people seem to want to wear higher rank and medals but tend to step back when it comes to doing the work. They just expect that it is as simple as turning up in a uniform and putting some kit together, but forget that aside from having a civilian job, a home to run and a family to look after, running a group can involve a lot of time consuming work.

In our group we promote the workers and the leaders, while those who just turn up and do little will remain where they are. Some are happy to just be where they are, but when it comes to moving up the scale - if you want it, earn it. Then if an opportunity arises for promotion, you will be put forward for it. We like to maintain a realistic ratio of junior ranks to junior and senior NCOs, limiting our rank structure, but giving us an authentic balance.

And if we had a doctor join our ranks, then yes, he starts at the bottom where we all started until he proves worthy of more. Any one who doesn't like it isn't pressured to join.
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Hauser
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Re: rank system

Post by Hauser »

It would appear that rank is one of the most contentious points in a group .? and i think in my humble opinion is one of the main reasons good men leave, It needs addressing, i bet if the groups did a secret anonymous vote they would be surprised of the outcome. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Giving promotion on merit is good idea, but also previous qualifications need to be looked at, unique skills in a group need rewarding,

So in your group who picks who's getting premoted, The Leader??
or do you all have a secret vote ? letting your men decide who they want ... instead of one man ? Then there's no resentment in the main group, let the men decide who they want for there leader !
(As i said the owner ain't always the best man for the job)

Is it not possible to give a few qualified men a "bite of the cherry" ? and rotate one lower rank so they all get a feeling for command ? ( if they deserve it? ) as i said 2 / 3 shows then onto the next man ..... call it command training ?

and by the way i am a signals private ....and happy ....as there's only me in our group interested in the comms side...!
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