Oh the times they are a-changing

General reenactment discussion

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JDR
Posts: 644
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by JDR »

Cries of "It's only a hobby" are just blinds. We all know it's not. It's a lifestyle
No different to any other hobby its not a life style its escapism if anything.
Vehicles are being sold abroad
maybe because people in this country just dont have the spare cash and need to sell their expensive toys
Overseas trips are becoming more popular
I would factor in a couple of reasons
1. The cost of cheap flights a weekend looking around europe on a jollys is roughly the same as a weekend battling at a private battle in the UK
2. The lack and loss of winter battles over the years groups have moved on and looked at other ways to fill in the winter months.

When i frst started out the american groups were the ones the Uk groups looked up to aspired too. then imho the UK scene overtook reenactment over the pond and a european reenactment was in its infancy due to laws or not something you talked about or reenacted etc etc now barriers are been taken down and the european groups i would say have over moved into pole position.
And at the moment I don't think we are winning
Didnt realise it was a competion or a pissing contest if you like :lol:

I would say Uk reenactment is very healthy at the moment more shows, some private battles overseas trips plenty of vendors offering better uniforms and equipment compared the the good old days of converted Swedish.
IMHO the only couple of downsides to the hobby in the UK presently are the fuel costs and the weapon hire costs
And that boys is how you take a penalty.

Hoffman Grink

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Hoffman Grink »

I reckon what they are actually doing is getting on with re-enacting - Not backslapping, bitching (well not some of them at least!!!! ha ha ha ha) and concentrating on how much SpecialBrew/Jagermeister/Wifebeater they can drink........

I reckon they have a focus and objectives beyond getting out of a weekend to meet their mates and have a laugh.

Whilst I totally agree that it has to be fun and enjoyable - for many in the UK fun and enjoyment revolve around things not found when you started in the hobby Jon - indeed not found when I started in the hobby. I used to pitch up with a zelt (one zelt) and a 85 pattern bag with one wool blanket - Had a Juwel stove and a rat pack....... Then the group got a couple of 160lb tents which made life a bit easier but the evening entertainment (ahhhhhhh Bolsover) was a fire, some stories and a few tinnies while the sossidges charred over the tesco throwaway barbie....... It was a man's game (VERY few ladies out there) and roughing it was part of the ethos..... but that in itself is not re-enactment -just part of how it was.

The focus of what the hobby was about has changed - and the old values are largely lost. Not saying if that is a good or a bad thing as that's not the issue (although some will try to say it is) Back in the day the majority of those re-enacting were collectors and some had and still have fantastic collections. Now the majority of proponents have largely repro gear and occasionally a modest or growing collection...... another change.

People coming in to the hobby do it for largely different reasons and with a different motivation. No critcism there - just an observation.

The times they are definitely a changing - true fact. How and why - well my perception may be different from someone elses - Perfectly willing to admit that....... and when we got on to the Euroboys - It was by way of example. They are doing this for slightly differing reasons to us and with different motivation - The photo question is only a part of it. Good visual documentation is actually vital in "getting it right" - If you can take time and care to research a subject for a photoshoot and ensure that everything in it will stand scrutiny then you are doing well - Your knowledge base will increase and your "authenticity quotient" will shoot up. TFH are a prime example of this. They took the themed photoshoot to a fine art level and even went abroad to recreate some evocative shots - Always though with a historical event or unit in mind. For many Brits it's enough to sew a few badges on, bling up, rub some soot on their faces and growl into the lens on a railway platform.......... Groups then like GD Recon and PFRGD have taken this to the limit and put out some carefully researched photos that actually illustrate what's best about our scene here..........

Take this how you will - there is no escaping - if you take off the rose tinted specs we are not the cat's cahunas anymore. And the malaise of being afraid to say anything lest you be cast out and branded a witch is not helping....... I mentioned double standards the other week because of two examples I had seen which conflicted - I stressed it wasn't a pop - I stressed I wasn't identifying anything or anyone and immediately the hackles went up and people actually identified themselves and the instances whilst trying to take the utmost care not to walk on eggshells...... I suspect those involve feel aggrieved now and possibly rifts have opened up........ or widened, but re-examining it all - If we don't discuss things - how do we know what's right and what's wrong - How do we progress? No - it's all about point scoring and perceived point scoring. And this is detrimental to our hobby. It's so cluttered up with outside crap that the actual point of recreating something, exploring a subject and actually having a worthwhile purpose (no - nothing lofty or noble - just a good old fashioned reason for wasting time and money of a weekend) is being swamped........

We can do this til the cows come home (authentic Waffent Ampt Kuhes of course) but it won't alter anything - whether I'm right or wrong in my assertions - The times are changing and the balance shifting.

Hoffman Grink

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Hoffman Grink »

Didnt realise it was a competion or a pissing contest if you like
Oh yes you did (in a pantomime audience kinda way)
It has been for a long long time and will be for a long long time yet.


And you darned well know it.

But to qualify the statement (I knew it would be picked up on) - It was a turn of phrase rather than a statement of fact. The hobby IS competitive - numbers of people in a group, number of vehicles, amount of kit, shows attended, which spot is occupied, who gets to battle, who is organising, blah blah blah....... And as above - these are the factors that contribute to the stagnation. If people spent less time on these and more time "getting it right" then we would be a lot better off.

If people actually did make friends and not convenient allies then it would be better all round. If people actually worked together on projects for mutual benefit rather than trying to use some schmuck's talents for your benefit this time around we'd have less friction and if people remembered it's hard to keep a friend than it is to make an enemy there would be more genuine friendship in this game.

Hoffman Grink

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Hoffman Grink »

and the european groups i would say have over moved into pole position.
Allelujah!

Hoffman Grink

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Hoffman Grink »

I just feel someone being compelled to type away - right now........ :roll:

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dagda
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Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by dagda »

I can only go on what I see and what I know. If the non UK groups are so good, how come a lot of those people want to go to Beltring, as gusts of UK based units? Us included.

Secondly money and the real world have a say in what happens! Me, Im married with children and so are the rest of the blokes in the group and they want to keep it that way, same with the cash! It costs us a fortune to go and do anything, but why do we do it? because we enjoy it. A lot of the European groups are younger guys and only have thier mickey to look after, so they can do more events.

Yes I can see the day when I wont be able to do a credible fallschirmjager and then Ill do some last stand Heer impression. But until then, Ill go to shows,private battles, training weekends and the like! And the best bit! Sitting around the fire with mates,having a few beers talking shite and so on!!
You're losing.you're losing, you're losing your vitamin c

Egyptian Kings packing their things!!

I keep this picture to keep my hate strong!

http://www.heavenandhell.org.uk

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Stigroadie

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Stigroadie »

dagda wrote: If the non UK groups are so good, how come a lot of those people want to go to Beltring, as gusts of UK based units?
But why shouldn't they? It's a great gathering of like minds, a fantastic shopping trip and a good place to get pictures of all kinds of vehicles. They have been doing it for years, it hasn't just coincided with the rise of the quality of some European groups.
Perhaps they enjoy us making them look good? :twisted:

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dagda
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Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by dagda »

The point I was trying to make is that the UK scene is as vibrant as ever, and I don't think its in decline at all.
You're losing.you're losing, you're losing your vitamin c

Egyptian Kings packing their things!!

I keep this picture to keep my hate strong!

http://www.heavenandhell.org.uk

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Gott Mit Uns
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: Worcestershire UK

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Gott Mit Uns »

I think these observations are totally out-of-context Paul!!

Clearly you have missed that the Obesity Pandemic has yet to hit Europe.

:lol:
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Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt

Stigroadie

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Stigroadie »

The numbers are there, the events are there but there does seem to be a lack of passion and any attempts to improve.
Look at the replies here?
"we are fine"
"we dont need to improve"
"nothing wrong here"
"we do our thing" [These are a precis, a flavour if you like, of the comments]
These are not comments of those going forward.

meyer

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by meyer »

:lol: i think pauls just poking you all with a stick , "fat boys drinking club" surely he's member number 2 :lol: .....oh bugger :oops: ......... that means am number 1 :lol: sod it were's the stella :D :lol:

Hoffman Grink

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Hoffman Grink »

No not poking with a stick. Just raising awareness. You'd be amazed to know I hardly drink these days. Don't see the need to be honest. I get my highs differently. Section 5 is a real buzz. :wink:

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Schnitzel
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Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Schnitzel »

Times are always changing, it's good that they are, otherwise we'd get nowhere. :lol: I feel compelled to give some thoughts from one European (me :D ), because there's been quite a bit of mentioning of the European scene, and to start with, I don't think the comments on how Europe is 'winning' are all that accurate. It's not so much competitive as it is a difference of re-enactment cultures.

Re-enactment in the UK has been around forever, in my eyes. There's even a topic here somewhere dedicated to the re-enactment photos of the '80s, while in contrast our group was the first official fully recognized Wehrmacht group in our country only as far back as 2009, though admittedly the founding of the group was another couple of years prior to that.

So the UK scene has been around for a long time, and so have its members, and as had been pointed out before in this thread, age does bring along a different way of doing things, if only because there's a wife and kids to think about :P There's no doubt in my mind that as we age, we will also settle down more. Another result of the long period of re-enactment in the UK is the shear amount of groups that have sprung up, I count 3, maybe 4 german WW2 groups here, while I can double that number off the top of my head for the UK. That big pool of groups also means that there's probably a large amount of average/good and a smaller percentage of excellence. It means that it's easy to find something to rag about in the UK scene if only because it's so large.

But I also think that because our re-enactment scene is younger, we are forced to keep on our toes and do the best we can, not too long ago German re-enactment was still taboo, and we're still breaking the mould, and we can only do that by being at the top of our game. Some of the things we see in the UK could never see the light of day over here.

As for the more eastern European countries, I have no idea. I have never been at an event there, but the videos I have seen are staggering, mostly because of the amount of kit, space and freedom of action they have, but again I don't feel that's because they are ahead in some competitive curve, but rather because they actually have the means to do what they do. I'm sure that if we had the space, kit and legal freedom over here (Western Europe), we'd be doing exactly the same thing.

I'd better stop now, or else I might find myself competing with Herr Hoffman's walls of text :lol:
It is only a problem if you make it a problem

Member of the Dutch 116th Panzer Division 'Der Windhund' group

Hoffman Grink

Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Hoffman Grink »

Brilliant. Kamerad Schnitzel gets it. It's a difference of reenactment cultures. Bang on the money.

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Ropes
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Re: Oh the times they are a-changing

Post by Ropes »

I feel I have some apologies to make. After what Was witnessed at W&P this year all European groups must hang there heads in shame. Im not sure what it was supposed to be. But it was badly made and parked somwhere it shouldnt of been! After a few hours of the 85th GJ thinking it belonged to Das Reich and Das Reich thinking it belonged to 85th GJ the abomination was finally claimed by of all people a German. It was promptly removed and I hope was set on fire by some one by the end of the week. This man has single handedly destroyed the Europeans hard work. You should all be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves! UK once again rains supreme!................................................................ ;)
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