Breadbags

Moderator: Pirkka

Kyrl
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:16 pm

Breadbags

Post by Kyrl »

Hello,

I know that the Finns used german ww1 breadbags during Winter War and after. But as far as I know these were in two colors, grey and brown:

Image

Image

Are both colors correct for a Winter War uniform? If yes, which one was most common?

thank you,
Kyrl.
User avatar
Peter Bauer
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:24 pm
Location: Oita, Japan
Contact:

Re: Breadbags

Post by Peter Bauer »

I don't think Finland used German breadbags. As far as I know. The finnish one is quite close to the german first world war one though, but still a bit different.

But then again, it's probably better if someone else has the final word on this one...
Image
User avatar
Peter Bauer
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:24 pm
Location: Oita, Japan
Contact:

Re: Breadbags

Post by Peter Bauer »

Image

Here you can see the finnish one.
Image
Franz repper
Posts: 5732
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:41 pm
Location: TAMPERE FINLAND
Contact:

Re: Breadbags

Post by Franz repper »

I think thats the post war model in the Photo war time one did not have the group of 4 straps it was only the lower 2
ImageImageImageImageImage
Kyrl
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:16 pm

Re: Breadbags

Post by Kyrl »

I don't think Finland used German breadbags. As far as I know. The finnish one is quite close to the german first world war one though, but still a bit different.
But then again, it's probably better if someone else has the final word on this one...



Well you're surprising me there. I have found really many references to the german ww1 bredbag. Maybe it is because I focus on the Winter War? I have red that the Finns produced indeed their own model of breadbag but it appeared in significant number only during Continuation and Lapland War, the main one at the beginning of the war being the german one.

This page shows well what i'm describing:
http://netti.nic.fi/~junkyard/canteens.html

This one too:
http://2jager.com/fieldgear.htm

Here is a museum picture:
Image
User avatar
Peter Bauer
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:24 pm
Location: Oita, Japan
Contact:

Re: Breadbags

Post by Peter Bauer »

Nice to learn something new!

I've - honestly - never before bumped in to a german breadbag before! :D

Now that I have, I guess it's safe to choose which ever color. I believe then, that the most dominant color in the german army must have been the same as the most dominant color in the finnish army too :)

Breadbag in the above pictures is post war, yes, has the upper loops added compared to war time ones.
Image
Kyrl
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:16 pm

Re: Breadbags

Post by Kyrl »

Nice to learn something new!
My pleasure! :)
Now that I have, I guess it's safe to choose which ever color. I believe then, that the most dominant color in the german army must have been the same as the most dominant color in the finnish army too :)
That sounds good, but really at this point for me it is hard to say which was most common in the Reichswehr. I am not at all a connoisseur of ww1 militaria and especially not the german one. After a bit of research, I have found that the grey beadbag is labelled "m1914" while the brown one is probably a model from 1880's or 1890's and still in use in 1914. The little infos I have make me think that the m1914 was the regulation breadbag in 1915 and after, but it is not for sure, and it would not at all be surprising if the brown breadbag stayed in use until the end of ww1.
For the museum picture I posted, I find quite difficult to tell the color because of the light...

The fact is that Finland apparently purchased a lot of ww1 german field equipment (canteens, breadbags, ammo pouches...), but I don't know if the Germans sold them their oldest gear or not...
User avatar
Peter Bauer
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:24 pm
Location: Oita, Japan
Contact:

Re: Breadbags

Post by Peter Bauer »

I would probably go for the lighter colour, as it is closer to the finnish breadbag and that way wouldn't "stand out" too much.

I knew about canteens (mine is 40's made canteen with old german cover) and ammo pouches and helmets being bought from Germany, but I was unaware of breadbags being bought from Germany too.

Now this has lead me to wonder if the törnisteri (tornister) backpacks used by finns before and during Winter war were actually mostly German ones...
Image
Kyrl
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:16 pm

Re: Breadbags

Post by Kyrl »

I would probably go for the lighter colour, as it is closer to the finnish breadbag and that way wouldn't "stand out" too much.
I have asked some ww1 militaria collectors and that's what I thought: the grey replaced the brown in late 1914 but the brown was used until it was out of stock, so it was seen until end of ww1...
So I will go for the grey, as it is indeed lighter and I find it more elegant also :D
I knew about canteens (mine is 40's made canteen with old german cover) and ammo pouches and helmets being bought from Germany, but I was unaware of breadbags being bought from Germany too.

Now this has lead me to wonder if the törnisteri (tornister) backpacks used by finns before and during Winter war were actually mostly German ones...
There is a good chance they were. I will try to find that out...
Fisto
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Breadbags

Post by Fisto »

The standard issue breadbag model for the finns before 1936 was the exact same as was in use with the germans in WW1 due to the fact that the Jaegers who served in Germany in that war brought them back to serve as a model.
During the "Great Renovation" of 1936 most of the finnish field equipment was redesigned to more fully comply with the demands troops had placed. This included a redesigned breadbag, which compared to the WW1 model, had a number of differences. Firstly the two vertical straps and a snaphook that were meant to fasten the messkit in place, and the main compartment inside is divided into two offset spaces. The bag is also somewhat larger than its predecessor. In the 1960:s this bag was again redone, this time it was simply made even larger and a second pair of straps added to fasten the messkit. This post war type of bag is the most common bag in the market today, but is still distinguishable from its war time predecessors if you observe the cut closely.

In answering the question that bauer asked, i ask another: Wherein lie the origins of most of the finnish field equipment of that time (and to some extent today) The finns purchased whole shiploads of equipment to serve as models, and indeed issue gear as well. It would be fair to say, that with a shortlived project like the tornister, the vast majority of the surviving pieces are of German origin. This applies to most other pieces of kit as well.

War time bread bag:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~junkyard/IM000343.jpg
Tomumme maassa
Nimemme kivessä
Isänmaa on vapaa!
User avatar
Peter Bauer
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:24 pm
Location: Oita, Japan
Contact:

Re: Breadbags

Post by Peter Bauer »

But do you have any other information about Tornisters? I've read about them plenty of times and seen some BW photos, but I don't know the exact model etc. and how closely it was related tp the german ones, or if it was indeed a german ww1 tornister...
Image
Kyrl
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:16 pm

And

Post by Kyrl »

What I found about the tornister:

http://2jager.com/fieldgear.htm

There is a picture at the bottom of this page. They say that the finn tornister is similar to the ww2 gebrigsjager one, but really I don't feel sure about this. Anyway the bag they show seems to match with this photo I have, dated 13th march 1940:

Image

And here is a repro of a ww1 german one. This doesn't seem to correspond as the "pipping" on the pocket flaps is not present:
Image
User avatar
Richk98
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:44 am
Location: Essex
Contact:

Re: Breadbags

Post by Richk98 »

Very interesting thread! I hope i can add something with these pics of some of my gear.....
Image
salty (very) 44 dated breadbag
Image
43 dated rucksack
Image
Image
Image
undated but i believe postwar rucksack
Image
postwar breadbag(63 dated)
Image
another postwar breadbag(undated)
Image

regards,
rich
Rich
Image
Kyrl
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:16 pm

Re: Breadbags

Post by Kyrl »

Thank you.

Interesting to see that the wartime has no leather on pocket flaps while the believed-to-be postwar has it. Considering the picture of march 40 I posted, seems that the two possibilities are correct... But maybe for different episodes of the war? It would be great to find more precisions.
Pies
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Breadbags

Post by Pies »

A good way to spot post-war items is to look at the leather. If it's bluish-grey, as it seems to be in the second rucksack, then it's most likely post-war, they started using that kind of leather in 50s or 60s. It would also seem to me that the pocket flaps aren't reinforced with leather, just with different colored canvas.

As a side note, the second, green breadbag is border guards issue.
Image
Post Reply

Return to “Finnish Weapons and Equipment”