Heer Crusher cap-PLEASE DELETE- MODS

[wehrmacht98k]

hi guys,
anyone know where to get a Heer crusher cap with Panzer-aufklarungs (gold-yellow) piping? Somewhat cheap or expensive it doesn`t matter as long as it is somewhat nice quality.....Thanks in advance!!!
-Matt

[Franz repper]

Richard A underwood would be a good start

[Mooyman]

ask Saskia or Kay. office@stephan.de

They sell Erel caps for 50 euro's.

[Salacious Crumb]

if your a plain soldier or an NCO, buy one with a chinband... These days you see way to many caps without them!

[Mooyman]

if your a plain soldier or an NCO, buy one with a chinband... These days you see way to many caps without them!

That's true.

But i saw in the past many NCO's crushers without chinstrap.
what were the rules about this subject. :?:or were they given free after a certain time.

[Jagdpanther]

This is one of my pet hates..!

The wearing of "crushers" by Heer NCO re-enactors is a complete "reenactorism".

There was no such thing as a crusher for anyone apart from Officers in the Heer.

There are two kinds of cap involved, that re-enactors seem to have muddled up (sorry to teach many of you to such eggs here, I'm sure most of you are well aware of this, but just for anyone who isn't clear):

1) "Offizier Feldmutze alter Art" (Officers Old Style Field Cap, AKA "Crusher")

As the name implies, these were only worn by officers and were intended for field use - they were "crushable" to make them easier to store/shove in a bag etc in the field. They were never for NCOs or Privates (despite some of the more reputable repro suppliers - including RAU and James Brown - making "NCOs Crushers" available - these "NCO Crushers" are completely fantasy items).

"Offizier Feldmutze alter Art" (crushers) can be identified by having a leather peak and usually with flat machine woven insignia, although occasionally (very rarely) individuals replaced that with officers embroidered insignia and they lacked straps altogether. (NOTE "Administrative officials" within the Heer who were below the rank of Officer WERE authorised to wear a crusher variant, with insignia in white thread, rather than in aluminium thread as on mainstream officer's crushers, but regular Heer NCOs/Privates had no such hat available to them)

They looked like this (repro):



2) Schirmmutze (Visor Cap)

These were intended for "best", walking out etc, and differed from "Offizier Feldmutze alter Art" (crushers) in having stiff "vulkanfiber" visors rather than leather ones (or on modern repros, stiff plastic) and having chin cords - and of course, being less "crushable" than Crushers.

These came in two versions, one for Officers with bullion cords (in silver, or for Generals after 1.1.43 in gold) and one for NCOs/privates with leather straps.

Insignia for EMs/NCOs was always in metal, or for officers in either metal, or silver hand embroidered bullion wire (or,again, from 1.1.43 gold wire for Generals).

They looked like this, bottom shelf (again repros, front row and rear right officers, second row, left and centre, NCO/privates)



And that's it - simple as that....

....well almost - like all things German Army, there are things that muddy the waters - and I think that is where the confusion comes in:

Sometimes NCOs would remove the leather chin strap from the Visor to make it look like a crusher - they would still have metal insignia though and it would still have it's stiff visor, not the leather one of a true crusher. Occasionally an NCO promoted to officer would upgrade his NCO visor either by by replacing the leather cords with bullion ones, and possibly replace the metal insignia with officers embroidered insignia, or sometime just change the insignia to embroidered and remove the chinstrap altogether to make it look a bit like a crusher - but again, it would still have it's stiff visor, not the leather one of a crusher.

Conversely, sometimes officers would take their "Offizier Feldmutze alter Art" (crushers) and add bullion chin cords to make it look more like a Schirmmutze (Visor Cap).

The situation with Heer crushers is (I believe) further confused by the SS regs on crushers which was the opposite of that of the Heer - in the SS the only official crushers were the NCO crushers with the wool covered peak. Later on - completely against regs - SS officers emulated their Heer colleagues by having officers crushers made up with leather peaks etc and NCOs too had similar leather peaked crushers made up, again against regs.

However, in the Heer, there is no evidence of NCOs having crushers made up against regs (I have never seen an original photo of such).

Just for completeness, the Luftwaffe had no regs for a crusher, but it seems that many officers had crushers made up (i.e. "crushable" and with a soft leather peak) against regs, sometimes with, and sometimes without, aluminium chin cords.

Ade

[Jagdpanther]

P.S. Re where to get a piped visor from, I'd suggest:

http://www.extraklasse.co.uk/home.php

[Mooyman]

i think that i mixed it up with the w.ss

you are right there are not much pics from heer NCO's wearing crushers.

[Franz repper]

Herr Jagdpanther wrote

The situation with Heer crushers is (I believe) further confused by the SS regs on crushers which was the opposite of that of the Heer - in the SS the only official crushers were the NCO crushers with the wool covered peak. Later on - completely against regs - SS officers emulated their Heer colleagues by having officers crushers made up with leather peaks etc and NCOs too had similar leather peaked crushers made up, again against regs.

yes sir a field grey cap for NCOs was introduced in February of 1939 SS-Befehls -Blatt., Nr2,25 February 1939 ,Ziff.15. this was for wear in the Field a December 1939 order laid down that in the vicinity of the barracks ,senior NCO's could wear the field grey service cap with field grey uniform

[wehrmacht98k]

P.S. Re where to get a piped visor from, I'd suggest:

http://www.extraklasse.co.uk/home.php

I will have to contact him...he does not specify if the "yellow",is recon or signals.I am not sure if he has PANZER aufklarungs though because I was in a rush and didn`t have time to look through all his unorganized products...anything a bit cheaper?
-Matt

[wehrmacht98k]

CORRECTION: looking for NCO VISOR

[Mooyman]

P.S. Re where to get a piped visor from, I'd suggest:

http://www.extraklasse.co.uk/home.php

I will have to contact him...he does not specify if the "yellow",is recon or signals.I am not sure if he has PANZER aufklarungs though because I was in a rush and didn`t have time to look through all his unorganized products...anything a bit cheaper?
-Matt

as said: Saskia or Kay. office@stephan.de

They sell Erel caps for 50 euro's.
They are the best ones for their price.
High quality.

[wehrmacht98k]

P.S. Re where to get a piped visor from, I'd suggest:

http://www.extraklasse.co.uk/home.php

I will have to contact him...he does not specify if the "yellow",is recon or signals.I am not sure if he has PANZER aufklarungs though because I was in a rush and didn`t have time to look through all his unorganized products...anything a bit cheaper?
-Matt

as said: Saskia or Kay. office@stephan.de

They sell Erel caps for 50 euro's.
They are the best ones for their price.
High quality.

ANYONE know of any other places where I could get A HEER PANZER AUFKLARUNGS VISOR (NCO)??? and does Saskia have a website or something???
-Matt

[Franz repper]

Richard Underwood give him a call http://www.richardaunderwood.com/index.php?cPath=24_44

[BedsnHerts]

Epic Militaria do some that are pretty good value. Take out the brim stiffener, hold it over a steaming kettle and mold it to your desired level of floppiness. You can also easily change the metal insignia to something better if you want.

AFAIK white piping on headgear is correct for all units unless you're after a private purchase number - in which case a careful hour with a colored fabric pen will do the job.

Lost Battalions has a good essay on crusher cap confusion: c. Ed Walton

Actually, in the Heer, only commissioned officers and officer candidates were allowed to wear the M34 officer's field cap with the dark green band.

The early Reichsheer cap with the wool covered leather visor was indeed for all enlisted ranks, but it's use was exclusively limited to Ersatz units and Lehr units, according to Schlicht/Angola, and then it completely vanished in 1936. It's easily identified in photos by the medium gray badge cloth band that matches the gray badge cloth collars on the pre-1935 uniforms. That cap doesn't show up in wartime photos. Usually, write ups on this cap, Schlicht for one, claim it's not stiffened at all, but it does have the front stiffener like in an M43 cap or a Bergmütze, just no spring in the crown.

The M34 field cap with the leather visor, was strictly for commissioned officers and began to be called "Old Style Officer's" (alter art) after the introduction of the "New Style Officer's" (neuer art) field cap in 1938. This New Style M38 cap was essentially the same as the M34 enlisted cap (overseas type; "Schiffchen") but with officer trim. Old style caps continued to be acquired over the course of the war, they did not cease production in 1938. Somewhere out there is probably a photo of a wartime Heer noncom who's not an officer candidate wearing one of these or the prewar crushers, but I've never seen it.

The confusion about Heer noncoms wearing a "crusher" comes about because of the Reichsheer era Ersatz/Lehr crusher and the differing practices of headgear, both authorized and unauthorized, in the SS and the Heer. Heer noncoms were allowed to wear the Schirmmütze when the rest of the men were wearing field caps as the uniform of the day. In the fashion of the day, the spring was almost universally removed and the crown was worked into the shape of the old Reichsheer crushers. So while the Heer noncoms were looking dashing and noncommish in their Schirms, SS noncoms had to wear the cap that was the uniform of the day for the troops, meaning usually the Schiffchen. The SS-VT adopted field-gray as the color of their field uniform in 1936, replacing the old and short-lived earth-gray color. At the same time, they adopted a version of the Heer M34 officer field cap for noncoms, and only noncoms, to wear in the field, and only in the field. This cap differed from the Army "old style officer's" cap in that it had a wool covered visor and not the leather visor of the Army officer's cap. Photos show this cap in wide use during 1936, but collectors have been calling it the "M37" for eons. Same for the M37 SS field blouse, but I digress.

Anyway, as soon as the "M37" field cap came out in 1936, SS noncoms were putting leather Schirmmütze chin straps on their field caps and wearing them around the Kaserne and around town as if they were Heer sergeants exercising their prerogative to wear the Schirmmütze. Reichsheinie considered this to be a reactionary army-style division between the noncoms and the men and issued an order, which later had to be repeated, instructing the removal of the chin straps from the field caps and reiterating that these caps were only for field wear and not to be worn away from the field. These repeated directives were ignored. Not only that, but SS noncoms who were promoted to commissioned officer rank continued to wear their noncom field caps. And to top it off, SS officers started wearing leather visored Heer "Old Style Officer's" caps with the Totenkopf insignia replacing the cockade on the green band, but with the Army eagle often retained. With all that said, SS officers soon were having SS versions of the Heer "Old Style" cap made up with black bands and SS Schirmmütze skulls and birds applied. But soon SS noncoms were wearing this officially unauthorized leather visored caps as well. To top it all off, even Himmler himself got in on the act. If there were any authorization orders for these leather visored army-style caps, I've not seen them referenced anywhere. That's kind of odd considering the SS penchant for micromanaging uniforms.

It's interesting how many standard uniform practices the Germans engaged in were specifically against the regulations. In the case of Heer noncoms wearing "crushers" though, I really haven't seen it in any photos, so that seems to have actually been enforced as an officer's prerogative.