Fake arrest disc
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Fake arrest disc
After a little farting about on the 'tinternet I"ve found that some fake Gestapo warrant disks are made with the legend M9/86 under the eagle, why is this? Was there ever a Third Reich produced piece with any markings on them, and if not, why are these fakes so prelevant?
94-87 Ich bedauere nichts
57-93 Either put me in jail or kill me
57-93 Either put me in jail or kill me
If it is one of the square type, these normally have 'M/10/86' cast into the obverse side underneath the word 'Staatspolizei'. There is considerable debate as to whether these tags ever existed, however there is one which is believed to possibly be original. Certainly no documentary evidence in any archives has ever been found to support them.
I've been lucky enough to be able to examine 2 certified original Gestapo discs and these did not have any markings on them of the type you mention or I cite above. If it is of the oval type, I would be inclined to say it most likely a fake.
Dave
I've been lucky enough to be able to examine 2 certified original Gestapo discs and these did not have any markings on them of the type you mention or I cite above. If it is of the oval type, I would be inclined to say it most likely a fake.
Dave
Feldgendarmerie Trupp 82 - http://www.feldgendarmerie.co.uk
Panzer Nachrichten Abt. 38 - http://www.funker.co.uk
Hauptverbandplatz 82 - http://www.hvp82.co.uk
LHA members
Panzer Nachrichten Abt. 38 - http://www.funker.co.uk
Hauptverbandplatz 82 - http://www.hvp82.co.uk
LHA members
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Re:
Where did you hear that there may be real square disks? I bought one today from an antique store that was somewhat buried hoping that I scored. I've compared it to pictures of fakes I've seen and mine seems to be made of much, much, much, better quality and craftsmanship. Only problem is, it seems most think all of the squares are a fake, which they very well may be, but I'd hate to push it aside if it is in fact real!Feldjager wrote:If it is one of the square type, these normally have 'M/10/86' cast into the obverse side underneath the word 'Staatspolizei'. There is considerable debate as to whether these tags ever existed, however there is one which is believed to possibly be original. Certainly no documentary evidence in any archives has ever been found to support them.
I've been lucky enough to be able to examine 2 certified original Gestapo discs and these did not have any markings on them of the type you mention or I cite above. If it is of the oval type, I would be inclined to say it most likely a fake.
Dave
Re: Fake arrest disc
From conversations with other collectors - Don Bible is regarded as the leading authority on these. Best bet is to head over to WAF and post it up there.
There are pictures of the square type of discs (a contradiction?!) in Don Bible's book Third Reich Warrant Discs (ISBN 0-7643-1429-7). The square type only appear in the book in section 8 - 'Less Common Fakes'.
There are pictures of the square type of discs (a contradiction?!) in Don Bible's book Third Reich Warrant Discs (ISBN 0-7643-1429-7). The square type only appear in the book in section 8 - 'Less Common Fakes'.
Feldgendarmerie Trupp 82 - http://www.feldgendarmerie.co.uk
Panzer Nachrichten Abt. 38 - http://www.funker.co.uk
Hauptverbandplatz 82 - http://www.hvp82.co.uk
LHA members
Panzer Nachrichten Abt. 38 - http://www.funker.co.uk
Hauptverbandplatz 82 - http://www.hvp82.co.uk
LHA members
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- Posts: 58
- Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:26 am
Re: Fake arrest disc
Yeah, I posted in on the WH forum. They said it was a fake due to its square shape which never existed. Shame...Feldjager wrote:From conversations with other collectors - Don Bible is regarded as the leading authority on these. Best bet is to head over to WAF and post it up there.
There are pictures of the square type of discs (a contradiction?!) in Don Bible's book Third Reich Warrant Discs (ISBN 0-7643-1429-7). The square type only appear in the book in section 8 - 'Less Common Fakes'.
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Re: Fake arrest disc
http://ausweismarke.de/31201.html
The above link takes you to German / Hamburg CID investigator and German warrant disc collector Joachim Streckwaldt. His website will show you what's what in the field of collecting historic German warrant discs.
About the square Gestapo Warrant Disc of “Zentral Inspektion” / “Central Inspection”:
#) Description : Square , 48 x 48 mm to 40g , brass-colored
Front : “Geheime Staatspolizei”/ “Secret State Police” underneeth the “Reichsadler” eagle ; underneeth that in small “M / 10/86“
Back: “Zentral Inspektion” / “Central Inspection” above that two rectangular fields a number and location name stamped / engraved .
Known places / locations : Dachau , Lublin , Guson ( should actually be Gusen ) , Auschwitz , Sachsenhausen , Mauthausen , Niederhagen , Arbeitsdorf (working village) , Natzweiler and Bergen-Belsen .
There is no evidence that these discs have been in existence at any given time in history.
The prevailing opinion of reputable dealers and auctioneers states that without exceptions these discs are fantasy products from either England or Austria . I advise on the purchase and acceptance of such pieces . They have a maximum value of 20 , - € as a fake for collectors .
The symbol (Toolmakers mark) “M / 10” of Reichszeugmeisterei (Toolmakers of the Reich) was specifically reserved for the producers of Musical instruments.
Good luck collecting ...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
#) Beschreibung : Quadratisch, 48 x 48 mm, um 40g, messingfarben
Vorderseite : "Geheime Staatspolizei" dazu der Reichsadler; darunter in klein "M/10/86"
Rückseite : "Zentralinspektion" darüber in zwei rechteckigen Feldern eine Nummer und eine Ortsangabe eingeschlagen/eingraviert.
Bekannt sind Ortsangaben : Dachau, Lublin, Guson (müsste eigentlich Gusen heißen), Auschwitz, Sachsenhausen, Mauthausen, Niederhagen, Arbeitsdorf, Bergen-Belsen und Natzweiler.
Es gibt keinen Beleg dafür, dass es diese Marken überhaupt gegeben hat.
Die herrschende Meinung der seriösen Händler und Auktionatoren besagt, dass es sich ausnahmslos um Fantasieprodukte aus England oder Österreich handelt. Ich rate vom Kauf und der Annahme solcher Stücke ab. Sie haben einen Wert von maximal 20,- € als Fälschung für die Sammlung.
Das Kürzel "M/10" der Reichszeugmeisterei war übrigens den Herstellern von
Musikinstrumenten vorbehalten.
Viel Erfolg beim sammeln ....
The above link takes you to German / Hamburg CID investigator and German warrant disc collector Joachim Streckwaldt. His website will show you what's what in the field of collecting historic German warrant discs.
About the square Gestapo Warrant Disc of “Zentral Inspektion” / “Central Inspection”:
#) Description : Square , 48 x 48 mm to 40g , brass-colored
Front : “Geheime Staatspolizei”/ “Secret State Police” underneeth the “Reichsadler” eagle ; underneeth that in small “M / 10/86“
Back: “Zentral Inspektion” / “Central Inspection” above that two rectangular fields a number and location name stamped / engraved .
Known places / locations : Dachau , Lublin , Guson ( should actually be Gusen ) , Auschwitz , Sachsenhausen , Mauthausen , Niederhagen , Arbeitsdorf (working village) , Natzweiler and Bergen-Belsen .
There is no evidence that these discs have been in existence at any given time in history.
The prevailing opinion of reputable dealers and auctioneers states that without exceptions these discs are fantasy products from either England or Austria . I advise on the purchase and acceptance of such pieces . They have a maximum value of 20 , - € as a fake for collectors .
The symbol (Toolmakers mark) “M / 10” of Reichszeugmeisterei (Toolmakers of the Reich) was specifically reserved for the producers of Musical instruments.
Good luck collecting ...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
#) Beschreibung : Quadratisch, 48 x 48 mm, um 40g, messingfarben
Vorderseite : "Geheime Staatspolizei" dazu der Reichsadler; darunter in klein "M/10/86"
Rückseite : "Zentralinspektion" darüber in zwei rechteckigen Feldern eine Nummer und eine Ortsangabe eingeschlagen/eingraviert.
Bekannt sind Ortsangaben : Dachau, Lublin, Guson (müsste eigentlich Gusen heißen), Auschwitz, Sachsenhausen, Mauthausen, Niederhagen, Arbeitsdorf, Bergen-Belsen und Natzweiler.
Es gibt keinen Beleg dafür, dass es diese Marken überhaupt gegeben hat.
Die herrschende Meinung der seriösen Händler und Auktionatoren besagt, dass es sich ausnahmslos um Fantasieprodukte aus England oder Österreich handelt. Ich rate vom Kauf und der Annahme solcher Stücke ab. Sie haben einen Wert von maximal 20,- € als Fälschung für die Sammlung.
Das Kürzel "M/10" der Reichszeugmeisterei war übrigens den Herstellern von
Musikinstrumenten vorbehalten.
Viel Erfolg beim sammeln ....
- Attachments
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- Gestapo Zentralinspektion viereckig Dachau 5018 Kürzel = FAKE [The Symbol / Das Kürzel "M/10" for the Reichszeugmeisterei / Toolmakers within the Reich]
- Gestapo Zentralinspektion viereckig Dachau 5018 Kürzel = FAKE.jpg (4.02 KiB) Viewed 12175 times
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- Gestapo Zentralinspektion viereckig Dachau 5018 revers = FAKE
- Gestapo Zentralinspektion viereckig Dachau 5018 revers = FAKE.jpg (8.6 KiB) Viewed 12175 times
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- Gestapo Zentralinspektion viereckig Dachau 5018 avers = FAKE
- Gestapo Zentralinspektion viereckig Dachau 5018 avers = FAKE.jpg (9.18 KiB) Viewed 12175 times