How offen where German P.O.Ws beaten?

[Tychsen]

HG
Can I ask what the point of this thread is? It stands a very real risk of turning into an atrocity fest.......

So far it has been pretty good at dealing with some delicate matters.

Panzer Wittmann
Hope nobody was offended by my reference to the dachau incident. It was merely my intention in the spirit of the original question to point out that axis or allied, from Stalingrad to Normandy, the treatment of POWs was often luck of the draw.

This is true and veterans from all sides have confirmed this, prisoners of war from all sides did not suffer abuse or summary execution at the hands of their captors.
Waffen SS were killed at Dachau but there was no order to do so, likewise on Sicily an American NCO shot POW's and was arrested for it -again no order to do so and for the record he got off with it.

As far as civilians beating up went , look at the film footage shot in Paris and in other European capitals liberated by the Allies - it was a cathartic release as much as anything.

As far as "Other Losses" goes - the deaths of German POW's post war was not policy and was the product of poor information , these deaths and incidents like Dachau have been much used and abused by " revisionist" type historians.

[Hoffman Grink]

HG
Can I ask what the point of this thread is? It stands a very real risk of turning into an atrocity fest.......

So far it has been pretty good at dealing with some delicate matters.

Well I must admit I was tempted to answer initially with "Twice a day whether they needed it or not!"

[Tychsen]

HG
Well I must admit I was tempted to answer initially with "Twice a day whether they needed it or not!"

As in the style in which "Billy Connolly" received corporal punishment from his mother , with rhythm "Do you- want some more- of this........ there's more where- this came from"

[PaulW]

"As far as "Other Losses" goes - the deaths of German POW's post war was not policy and was the product of poor information , these deaths and incidents like Dachau have been much used and abused by " revisionist" type historians."

Really??? Like these people:-

1. Martin Brech – he wrote the book “In Eisenhower's Death Camps: A U.S. Prison Guard's Story”, in which he describes his personal experiences in Germany after the war.

2. Colonel Ernest F. Fisher, 101st Airborne Division, Senior Historian, United States Army – he wrote "Starting in April 1945, the United States Army and the French Army casually annihilated one million [German] men, most of them in American camps . . . Eisenhower's hatred, passed through the lens of a compliant military bureaucracy, produced the horror of death camps unequalled by anything in American history . . . an enormous war crime."

3. General Robert Littlejohn - in a memorandum, he informed Eisenhower that 1,550,000 Germans who were supposed to be receiving U.S. army rations were getting nothing.

4. Colonel James Mason and Colonel Charles Beasley, U.S. Army Medical Corps – they published a paper on the US prison camps in 1950, including the following description : "Huddled close together for warmth, behind the barbed wire was a most awesome sight; nearly 100,000 haggard, apathetic, dirty, gaunt, blank-staring men clad in dirty gray uniforms, and standing ankle deep in mud."

5. Max Huber, head of the International Red Cross – he wrote a letter to the U.S. State Department describing American interference in efforts to save starving Germans. Some months later he received a response, falsely claiming that giving Red Cross food to enemy personnel was forbidden.

6. Jean-Pierre Pradervand, head of the International Red Cross delegations in France - in late 1945 he told Henry W. Dunning (an American Red Cross official) that conditions in the French camps were worse, in many instances, than anything seen in the former Nazi camps.

[PaulW]

Further to the above post Stephen Ambrose (famous for penning 'Band of Brothers') was one of the 'respectable' historians who went on to criticize James Baque's book "Other Losses". The book seriously criticizes Eisenhower, but Ambrose was Eisenhower's biographer and he launched a symposium at the Eisenhower centre in New Orleans (that he founded!) to attack the book - so completely unbiased then! It gets worse, Ambrose's attack was quite belated - initially he admitted that the book had revealed great truths that had been swept under the carpet for many years, he was quoted as saying that his life's work was finished - and he actually helped to edit the book and assisted James Baque initially!
Later, Ambrose's reputation was discredited. He was accused of plagiarism and it was shown that he had exaggerated his relationship with Eisenhower massively - to the point of embarrassment.
With reference to the original thread I don't think it's a question of German POW's being beaten, rather how many were murdered. We all know that of the 95,000 German (Rumanian, Italian etc) POW's who surrendered after Stalingrad, only 5,000 survived Soviet prison camps. What most people don't know is that the Western powers ruled their sections of post-war Germany with absolute power for some years after the war, many German POW's died through mal-treatment and the records have since been destroyed meaning we will never know how many died/ were effectively murdered through starvation/ purposeful exposure to the elements etc. This should by no means be used to distract from the harsh treatment the Germans handed out to POW's in the East particularly - but two wrongs don't make a right - and fact is that German treatment of POW's in the West was not terrible.

[grenmartens]

I was watching nazi hunters,

and on there was footage of german soldiers being attacked by people, manily citizens. IE being punched, kicked and so on
There was also one german soldier a medic, alone being kicked and hit by sticks
But also the capters didn't do anything as this happend

So Was it accepted for german POWS to be beaten and how offen did it happen and why didn't the soldiers fight back or try to defend then selfs?

The Germans presided over the death of some TWO MILLION Soviet POW's IN THE FIRST NINE MONTHS following the launch of Operation Barbarossa. Over ONE MILLION human beings were MURDERED at Auschwitz - including 200,000 children. I won't go on as it shouldn't be necessary to do so.

May I politely and respectfully suggest that PERSPECTIVE may be an approriate consideration in this matter.

[JDR]

I was watching nazi hunters,

and on there was footage of german soldiers being attacked by people, manily citizens. IE being punched, kicked and so on
There was also one german soldier a medic, alone being kicked and hit by sticks
But also the capters didn't do anything as this happend

So Was it accepted for german POWS to be beaten and how offen did it happen and why didn't the soldiers fight back or try to defend then selfs?

The Germans presided over the death of some TWO MILLION Soviet POW's IN THE FIRST NINE MONTHS following the launch of Operation Barbarossa. Over ONE MILLION human beings were MURDERED at Auschwitz - including 200,000 children. I won't go on as it shouldn't be necessary to do so.

May I politely and respectfully suggest that PERSPECTIVE may be an approriate consideration in this matter.

IMHO its was a case of pay back time

[Tychsen]

There was no pay back on German POW's in Canada, the USA or GB post war, and when thinking of the cz camp process, Hitler's social, ideological and political enemies were the first people through the gates - the enabling act served him very well and it was never lifted once enacted the "short term emergency power" to protect the people was used to entrap them.
I think this thread has really run its course.

[JDR]

There was no pay back on German POW's in Canada, the USA or GB post war, and when thinking of the cz camp process, Hitler's social, ideological and political enemies were the first people through the gates - the enabling act served him very well and it was never lifted once enacted the "short term emergency power" to protect the people was used to entrap them.
I think this thread has really run its course.

Are you sure there were no beatings or mistreatment of POWS in the countries you mentioned. I know of a story my old union chairman told me many years ago, when he was younger there were POWs who had to work on a farm that my union chairmans father worked on as farm worker. The farm owner wouldnt give the POWs any water and made them drink from the ditch at the bottom of the field.

[Hoffman Grink]

I'll repeat what I said earlier - in a slightly different way.

What happened in the 40s can not be judged using the accepted social norms or reasoning of the 2000's.
Back then, people thought differently, treated each other differently and behaviour was radically different to today.
Paul W has illustrated perfectly the mass mistreatment wilful and otherwise of German POWs. this is far in excess of the beatings Gilhusen asked about. He was referring to the oft seen newsreel footage of German Prisoners, just taken into captivity and usually in France, being roughly shoved, spat on and smacked around the head "spontaneously" (not staged for the cameras at all) as they are jostled along. In post 4 of this thread I explained possible reasons for that.

Paul W opens up the Allied Murder Camp issue and the underlying reasons behind it of contempt and vengeance.

Frontschwein Martens makes a good point about context and perspective. Collectively this nation and regime wilfully murdered over 11,000,000 prisoners over a period of 5 years. Understandably, some people on the winning side in positions of power took it upon themselves to bring that nation to account.

It happened - it's history, debate it all day - but you won't bring a single victim back.

I'll ask again - what's the point of this thread? Is it going to reach a conclusion on something? I think not.

[Tychsen]

JDR
Are you sure there were no beatings or mistreatment of POWS in the countries you mentioned.

I was referring to post war shootings and beatings eg "payback".
Let me put it this way - I have corresponded with some Ex U Boat men who stayed on boats at Lisahally and they found life as POW's hard especially after news of the "camps" became public.
As far as being hard , or "not making it an easy life " for POW's went I am sure it happened to both sides, as far as being sure goes - it is impossible to account for every camp or every work detail much would of course depend on the attitude of those supervising and that would quite naturally be a very mixed experience.
Beatings as a regular event ....I think not.

HG - I also think this one is now running in circles.

[Sturmschar]

It happened - it's history, debate it all day - but you won't bring a single victim back.

I'll ask again - what's the point of this thread? Is it going to reach a conclusion on something? I think not.

Lawks sometimes its like ground hog day but in slow motion - I have lost count of how many times we have done this one - "Other Losses" anyone.....................?

[Hoffman Grink]

It happened - it's history, debate it all day - but you won't bring a single victim back.

I'll ask again - what's the point of this thread? Is it going to reach a conclusion on something? I think not.

Lawks sometimes its like ground hog day but in slow motion - I have lost count of how many times we have done this one - "Other Losses" anyone.....................?

I am now firmly convinced there is more mileage in re-enacting Lavtian Rhubarb Farmers Self Protection Squads and their annexation of Moravia.

[mario33]

Im not even trying to take part in this topic. I might say a few things that may disturb a few ppl around... As it was said earlier, perspective is a good thing to take into consideration...

The only thing I want to add is a small, somehow funny, story. I was reading memoirs of Polish pilot of Polish Squadron 303 during the Battle of England (one of the most successful squadrons - 126 sure shot-downs sept-nov 1940). He recollects that his friend was shot down over South of England while engaging 3 Me109s. He jumped off with a parachute and landed on a field near small village. As soon as he landed, even before he had the opportunity to take off his flying suit, he was surrounded by 20-30 ppl asking if he's German. Unlucky enough he was not talking English apart from basics and his (un-)'Polish'(-ed) accent made it even worse. He was quickly punched and beaten with shovels' handles before finally being escorted to the village. Even showing his battle-dress or insignia didnt stop ppl from calling him 'a spy'. He was freed just after 4 hrs when MP arrived for him (they finally recognised he's an ally).

just a small but I think relevant note...

[Chorlitz|12.SS|]

Altho that is an intresting story, Its irelevant. How are we going to be able to answer the topics qustion. Was any on us there? We will never know, I don't see the whole jist of this topic, Im sure Americans did'nt keep a log of how many POWs they beat each day.... Pointless. It's like asking... (I can't think of a stupid qustion to match the caliber of this topic).....Plus even If we could find out what is the point, what could you do write a letter to the govement, because I tell you they would wipe their arse with it.