ANT-Z/ Pirschen- Heer tunics

[Erich Johann]

I still have one of Chens tunics so I'll take a comparrison shot next to one of our new ones.

Have you taken that comparative shot?

[pirschen]

oh,our 2011 version wool tunics really high quality, excellent craftmanship
http://www.antzmilitary.com/index.php?r ... duct_id=64

[pirschen]

from the left to right is our early war time wool M36,SS Italian wool M42,later war time wool SS M42, later war time wool M44,you can see the color, very correct.

[A.Weiss]

Hi Chen,

Excellent work, congratulations!

A.Weiß

[Stigroadie]

Get a room!

Are you guys serious with the bright pea green for early war M36 type?
Never noticed that hue in the records myself.
What references are you using?
A quick skan through some web images doesn't reveal anything close to vibrancy of that colour you are using. It almost looks like the Police green?
Granted the survivors are 70 years old and may have lost some 'sparkle' but the other colours you use seem to match originals to a greater degree. Either they all fade a little and lose some 'sparkle' or they dont?

[pirschen]

thanks Stigroadie
good question
what do you think Janke's M36 tunic color?
and what do you think the wool on original M35 helmet liner? the color is correct?
have a nice day

[pirschen]

and what do you think the color?

[Mooyman]

thanks Stigroadie
good question
what do you think Janke's M36 tunic color?
and what do you think the wool on original M35 helmet liner? the color is correct?
have a nice day

What has janke got to do with it..

What do you mean with ''wool on original helmet liner''

[A.Weiss]

Tunics original property atthefront





http://www.atthefront.com/factory.html

A.Weiß

[Stigroadie]

Tunics original property atthefront

And not a single one is pea green?
I'm not [yet] saying you are wrong, I'd just like to see some evidence that you are right.
You have made the tunic in this colour, the burden of proof lies with you to show it is correct.

[ScharfRudi]

I have followed lots of discussions on various forums where people post images to back up the argument that this is the correct colour and so on.

I am in the position of being both a reenactor who has in the past owned quite a number of original tunics, etc. and now collects repros - AND a graphic artist whose job is colour reproduction.

It is absolutely FUTILE posting pictures on the net to match shades of fabric (or anything) due to a range of factors - the lighting used in the photos, colour calibration (or lack of) in the monitors used to view the posted images - even the individuals perception of colour all play a major role.

I have a number of Chen bluses and they are quite OK, the M36 matches my original reasonably well and is certainly not "pea Green".

As per the ATF photos posted (hope you asked permission) the colour varies enormously in originals and I have found that ANTZ ones fall within the acceptable zones of that colour pallette.

If you want perfection you do have to pay for it and the choice may be the Uber ATF products (when they get off the ground) for MANY$$$$.

With a few tweaks the AntZ is IMO an acceptable option for the average reenactor who is trying to use his $$$ to buy all the bits one needs to put a decent impression together.

Ultimately the only way to get a totally accurate bluse is to use a real one and I would never recommend that.

[Stigroadie]

But when you have a known colour in the image, one to which you can compare directly to a sample in hand of the same?
Does that not give you a reference to work to, a base line?
Should this one colour, a green/grey in this case, be rendered with some accuracy would it not suggest that other green/greys in the image are, if not exactly correct, reasonably so. A neutral colour is often chosen for colour balance?
I have a number of items from Chen, spanning a number of years of his production. They have only one thing in common, the colours of field grey pebbled buttons.
Strange they should closely match the button colour in the multi tunic images that lead me to feel the M36 is too green?
Perhaps you can post some pictures of your original next to Chens reproduction, perhaps include a colour balance card? I wont hold my breath for those photos but I hope, SharfRudi, you prove to be one of those who actually has originals to compare to. So many who claim to have originals when called to show them suddenly go very quiet. Or find any number of reasons why they cant take and post a photo. Laughable.
It is a personal choice at the end of the day. If you can live with the colour and the pattern issues you get quite a lot for your money. They are not the best repro out there, the saviour of re-enacting on the cheap, but they are not terrible. Well, some of his products are. Bloody awful some of it, some not bad. The problem is you dont know until some one calls you out on it. I'm still not convinced he has the trouser patterns correct, the fly still seems short, and there are pages here and elsewhere on just how bad his pea dot is in colour and pattern. I dont need web images for that comparison, I have several generations of Ant-z pea dot.
I like the idea of 'with a few tweaks', I think you should detail what you consider those to be for the uninformed?
I'd call it some serious tailoring, not cheap to achieve, if you can find someone skilled enough and willing to do it for the right price.

[ScharfRudi]

Hi Stig,

I won't post pictures simply for the same reasons. Colour refraction works differently on different materials and I am basing the comparison will MY eyes and My tunics. You can never judge these things until they are in your hand, I have spent a lot of money that way over the years so I have some idea of what I am talking about.

You may consider that laughable but I would suggest that would be mean spirited of you.

I must say however my AntZ bluse is 1 year old so may be yet another batch to the one under discussion. Chens pictures of the M36 are always on the green side.

I am not looking for a fight or really even an argument and you seem quite passionate about your opinion, I am simply making a technical point about which I am qualified to make - 20 years+ in the graphics industry gives that.

I am not saying AntZ are the bees knees nor am i defending all his products - I never even considered buying his pea dot

I do remember the days of trying to motivate people away from converted Swedish tunics so please remember my stitch nazi tendancies have been modified by years of getting reenactors to present an OVERALL reasonable impression.

[Stigroadie]

Bear with me, I want to try a little test. I shall make a statement and see where it takes us. I dont hold the belief but I need to use it to illustrate my point. Devils advocate?
"I dont believe you have any original tunics or work in the graphics industry."
What we face is a credibility issue?
You ask us to take two things to mind.
1) you have original and repro M36 tunics
2) you have 20+ years of history in the graphics industry.
One you can prove with a simple photo adding weight to the other as you are seen to be a man of truth and integrity.
If you wish to make an 'appeal to authority' then you must show you have some or it falls down as just another story?
I am sorry to pick on you and use your case as an example but it so typical of the the bad reasoning and terrible logic seen on forums. Once you credentials are set up then you can adopt the authoritative position.
So many lay claim to expertise but can never support it. You are expected to take their word as law, just because. They hold opinions and make bold claims but can never post a link, take a snap shot or suggest a page number in a book we can consult to see why they might feel that way.
So many claim collections of original cloth they can never get a photo of, you will understand why I'm so skeptical of these claims.
One of the biggest problems is an inability to see that it is as close to impossible as it can be to prove a negative. I cant prove there were never any pea green tunics but it should be possible to show there were. Especially if you are asking us to buy them as a reproduction. The reference for such a colour must have come from somewhere?
I think in this case it's a symptom of copying a copy. Chens only response is to ask what colour is Janke M36. I have no idea and it's not relevant, as Mooyman says. The fact that two reproductions are not a great colour only magnifies the error rather than correcting it. I had the same chat with a Chinese producer and his new Zeltbahn. He copied the Sturm one with all it's errors rather than a real one. I have sent him some links to the correct pattern and he plans to correct later runs.
I have previously stated that I dont KNOW that this colour is wrong for M36, I just suspect it is. As I also said it looks more like 'Police' green to me. I am asking Chen and his fan boys to show me and the rest of the hobby that their research has turned up this 'early war' colour they use as one option. So far nothing, just that mention of Janke.

Can you see how my original statement leads down to here? The same lack of corroboration?
If this turns out to be right, this green is a valid option for an M36 will I be upset, be crest fallen as my views were found to be in error? Not in the slightest, I will have learned something new of value in the hobby.
The other thing is that most re-enactors wont give a toss. They all pay lip service to authenticity but given the chance to save a few quid and do it on the cheap then even that lip service gets dropped right away.
Are they wrong to do that? It's a hobby and it's their hard earned cash. Who the heck am I to say what they should and shouldn't wear. No-one, a big nobody. Again thats not the point.
If we can get the maker to put out the right stuff in the right colours there isnt a problem. they have improved their product and we all benefit from that. We need these threads to bash out these issues.
This is a hobby that has its basis in history and facts can be checked. Dont ask us to rely on faith.

[ScharfRudi]

OK, first I am sorry you are so jaded by forums, I agree there are a lot of false know it alls and "experts" out there, one very good reason why I very rarely post much.

I could go home tonight and copy my Curriculum Vitae, photograph my collection, etc. purely to satisfy your need for me to prove my "credentials" but really I am only stating a number of facts and I really don't need you to believe them that strongly.

Do I deserve to be called a liar just for giving my technical knowledge on imaging and my opinion on a bluse colour?

Please, believe what you like but will you treat everyone this rudely?