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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:45 pm 
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JDR wrote:
Sean

Quote:
So how were they Muslim if they did not follow there religion in such a strict manor?


you can say im a Christian but dont go to church same thing really.


But the teachings of the religions are totally different. Alcohol is a no go area, yet they relaxed the ideals.

ANYWAY, this is about Handschar, sorry for going OT

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Sean wrote:
So how were they Muslim if they did not follow there religion in such a strict manor?

It's just like saying, oh I'm a vegi but I eat Fish........

anyway, a serious question what non anti partizan duties were they involved in?


aw jeez....Im not getting involved in anything religious.
There are millions of Christians that do un-Christian things. But they still claim to be Christians. It's another case of global hypocrysy that I wont explain.

As early as Oct 44, artillery batteries, panzerjager and Flak units were sent (and attached to other units) to fight on the eastern front. They would be returned later on after heavy fighting.
The mass "desertions" occured later on when the order was given to leave Bosnia for Croatia.
A huge number of the men including officers refused to carry out the order and held their ground in Bosnia. They werent desertions at all, the men simply refused to leave their posts. The order was a blunder that destroyed the division, When it could've made a last stand alongside Prinz Eugen.But that's another story that I dont have time to explain in-detail.

For the rest of 1944, the Kampfgruppe was sent to hold their ground in front of the Soviets in Hungary. Where they were reported to have fought well.
Doing various things including holding bridgeheads in Batina and Apatin.
It was all basically fighting alongst the Danube till Fruhlingserwachen and the retrograde to Austria to surrender to the British.

"After a heavy artillery barrage the enemy attacked in the sector of the 13th SS and 297th Divisions in battalion and up to regimental strength, supported by tanks. The fighting was extremely bitter, some positions changed hands upwards of six times, and losses were bloody on both sides. Our troops, particularly the 13th SS Division "Handschar" have fought outstandingly well in the face of a vastly superior foe, Despite two enemy breakthroughs, the main battle line is in our hands. The fighting continues, One enemy tank has been destroyed."

15. April 1945 -officer from Oberkommando des Heeres

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Hans Gowert wrote:
42gunner wrote:

We're talking about European Muslims not fanatics. .



who said anything about fanatics ? praying to mecca doesnt make you a fanatic.


So they were muslims but didnt pray to mecca ?


im not trying to cause anything between religions or anything like that, its a serious question if the men of the handchar div got out there mats and prayed to mecca ?


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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:00 pm 
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Hans Gowert wrote:
Hans Gowert wrote:
42gunner wrote:

We're talking about European Muslims not fanatics. .



who said anything about fanatics ? praying to mecca doesnt make you a fanatic.


So they were muslims but didnt pray to mecca ?


im not trying to cause anything between religions or anything like that, its a serious question if the men of the handchar div got out there mats and prayed to mecca ?


Offcourse they're gonna face Mecca....
It was often done on battalion level during training, when there was time for it. But in a combat enviroment, unless youre a fanatic of some sort you're probably not gonna go wash up, get out a compass, try to find Mecca and pray.
The only picture I have of Handschar praying IN BOSNIA, is after Unternehmen Save, and that was in a mosque with other civilians.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:00 pm 
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42gunner wrote:
Sean wrote:
So how were they Muslim if they did not follow there religion in such a strict manor?

It's just like saying, oh I'm a vegi but I eat Fish........

anyway, a serious question what non anti partizan duties were they involved in?


aw jeez....Im not getting involved in anything religious.
There are millions of Christians that do un-Christian things. But they still claim to be Christians. It's another case of global hypocrysy that I wont explain.

As early as Oct 44, artillery batteries, panzerjager and Flak units were sent (and attached to other units) to fight on the eastern front. They would be returned later on after heavy fighting.
The mass "desertions" occured later on when the order was given to leave Bosnia for Croatia.
A huge number of the men including officers refused to carry out the order and held their ground in Bosnia. They werent desertions at all, the men simply refused to leave their posts. The order was a blunder that destroyed the division, When it could've made a last stand alongside Prinz Eugen.But that's another story that I dont have time to explain in-detail.

For the rest of 1944, the Kampfgruppe was sent to hold their ground in front of the Soviets in Hungary. Where they were reported to have fought well.
Doing various things including holding bridgeheads in Batina and Apatin.
It was all basically fighting alongst the Danube till Fruhlingserwachen and the retrograde to Austria to surrender to the British.

"After a heavy artillery barrage the enemy attacked in the sector of the 13th SS and 297th Divisions in battalion and up to regimental strength, supported by tanks. The fighting was extremely bitter, some positions changed hands upwards of six times, and losses were bloody on both sides. Our troops, particularly the 13th SS Division "Handschar" have fought outstandingly well in the face of a vastly superior foe, Despite two enemy breakthroughs, the main battle line is in our hands. The fighting continues, One enemy tank has been destroyed."

15. April 1945 -officer from Oberkommando des Heeres


I suppose elements of the unit were wasters, while the other were decent soldiers.

Still it doesnt get away from the fact there history will always be tarnished by there more well known deeds. Then again, the same could be said for the way Prinz Eugen handled Partizans.........

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Sean wrote:
42gunner wrote:
Sean wrote:




I suppose elements of the unit were wasters, while the other were decent soldiers.

Still it doesnt get away from the fact there history will always be tarnished by there more well known deeds. Then again, the same could be said for the way Prinz Eugen handled Partizans.........


The Division while it was in Bosnia, was very effective. The entire division.
The blunder was made when the order was given to move out of Bosnia.
Why that was done, ask Himmler, I dont know.

There are no good documents talking about any of the massacres done by the division that arent biased. The partisans recorded the number of corpses found behind the division, but failed to mention that the cetniks were there first. So the blame was initially put on Handschar.
They will also tell you that Handschar men mutilated their own comrades' bodies and blamed it on the partisans

so......if you believe crap like this
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/bosnia_ ... _gorge.htm
you're probably the most gullible person on earth

The people that wrote that article will also go on to tell you that the former BiH president, Alija Izetbegovic was an SS officer, that Handschar was a panzer division that had middle eastern recruits, as far Afghanistan. Or that Handschar made a final stand at the Reichstag.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:42 pm 
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Sean wrote:
JDR wrote:
Sean

Quote:
So how were they Muslim if they did not follow there religion in such a strict manor?


you can say im a Christian but dont go to church same thing really.


But the teachings of the religions are totally different. Alcohol is a no go area, yet they relaxed the ideals.

ANYWAY, this is about Handschar, sorry for going OT



Ive got a mate who used to be in DR with me whos claims to be a muslim he's a bigger piss head than me :lol:

Back on track regarding reenacting Handshar i dont have any problem at all, they were one of the " elite" units of the W-SS but not many were. again if its down to educating the mops its a different side to WW2 that doesnt get mentioned the Balkans.

IMHO i dont have a problem with any aspect of WW2 being reenacted at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:12 pm 
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A good 25-30% were other religions including Catholic, also a good majority of Handschar Officers were Germanic
after being transferred/posted from other Units, hence the runic badge worn on the breast pocket and seen in most pics!!
As for praying etc, there are some pics which i will find also of them studying the Koran etc but for the most part these
were properganda pics which were used to show the World that the Germans tolerate other religions etc, the same as when
the Grand Mufti from Jerusalem was asked to visit, it was part of some properganda exercise employed by the Nazi's to show
there Handschar soldiers and the Bosnian population that the Unit had the blessing of their religion but in affect it backfired
because as Gunner said the Handschar soldier wouldn't leave their homeland and especially fight somewhere else, this was
due to an order passed from the Grand-Mufti not to leave Bosnia/Croatia.

As for not drinking etc, i believe this rule was relaxed especially after entering combat and taking their last rites, and as for
taking an intrest in something different which may seem strange or in "somebody's" words perverse because our British Army
is fighting in Afghanistan, i think not and imho is a blinkered, short sighted racist view to take, basically these people were
not Afghans but infact Bosnians and Croatians!! and it may have escaped peoples attention that we have thousands of
Muslims living in the UK anyway who in some cases were born here and are serving in HM-Forces :roll:

Regards Pipes

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Last edited by Peiper on Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:21 pm 
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Wow wow wow Pipes, re wind and calm down!! They were simply questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:24 pm 
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Sean wrote:
Wow wow wow Pipes, re wind and calm down!! They were simply questions.


No not meaning your comments kamerad, it was the "perverse" remark that wound me up from
guess who?? :roll:

In my opinion some of these comments were bordering on racism/bigotry and not good,
thats why the UK fought Hitler in the first place wasn't it to do away with abusing other
races, except they called the places cute names like Auschwitz and Belsen????

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"Stride with proud disdain through the swamp of human inadmissibility" Jochen Peiper 1915-1976
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SS-Gren/Heinrich Stohler, Second Battle Group


Last edited by Peiper on Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:31 pm 
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This unit was a political weapon since 1943 till present day.
Serbs have taken the initiative to slander it's performance record and in some western countries you see this division being made into the link between the Third Reich and Islamofascism of today.

I personally have done the research and I hate to see people jump to such rediculous propaganda claims.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:05 am 
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what were the activities of the handchar in there 'down time' ?


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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:10 am 
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Peiper wrote:
it was the "perverse" remark that wound me up

Why should that wind you up?
It is possible to be perverse in a number of ways, most mean only to run against the grain or to contravene accepted norms. That's how I see re-enacting handschar.
Please highlight any bigotry or racism you see in my posts. Disapproval of your chosen costume d'jour constitutes neither.
Mr 42 gunner, I have read none of the 'propaganda' websites. Either pro or anti handschar. I have read various histories of the units that made up the German Armed forces of WW2. I dont recall one that was complimentary about the unit. These were not written by 'serbs' or anyone with an axe to grind but by historians looking only to provide a balanced review of the units of WW2.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:48 am 
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Stigroadie wrote:
Peiper wrote:
it was the "perverse" remark that wound me up

Why should that wind you up?
It is possible to be perverse in a number of ways, most mean only to run against the grain or to contravene accepted norms. That's how I see re-enacting handschar.
Please highlight any bigotry or racism you see in my posts. Disapproval of your chosen costume d'jour constitutes neither.
Mr 42 gunner, I have read none of the 'propaganda' websites. Either pro or anti handschar. I have read various histories of the units that made up the German Armed forces of WW2. I dont recall one that was complimentary about the unit. These were not written by 'serbs' or anyone with an axe to grind but by historians looking only to provide a balanced review of the units of WW2.


I've seen some of the low quality Osprey stuff. In their Waffen SS and Gebirgsjager books.
Where each division get's a paragraph or two and it's always parotted info that wasnt true to begin with. Stuff you can find out by googling Handschar. In Osprey's Gebirgsjager book.....all you'll hear is 2-3 sentences about a mutiny, anti partisan operations and some massacre with no source.
Same thing everywhere I looked.

Hans, about half way down the page I wrote something about down time during training.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=13540&start=15

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:54 am 
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thanks,

its a shame,

Someone i use to work with father in law was handchar , worked on the radios. Died about 4 years ago, he still has his soldbuch and some other documents. Tho i dont keep in contact now


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