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 Post subject: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:45 am 
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http://www.feldgrau.com/news.php

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North Cape, Norway - 2010-03-20 The Wreck of Scharnhorst was found 66 nautical miles north-northeast of North Cape, Norway. It lies 290m deep, upside down and badly damaged. The position of the wreck had not been previously known. In 1997 it was found that the wreck was not in the position offically listed as it resting place. After interviews of survivors (of 36 survivors, 10 are still alive today), and a simulation of the battle made by the Norwegian Naval war academy in Bergen, Norway, they came up with 6 different search areas. At the 2nd search area the wreck was found by using sonar. A diving vessel for the Norwegian navy went down and inspected the wreck. The Norwegian broadcasting corporation NRK financed the search and they are planning a documentary about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:16 pm 
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Now that is interesting news , Thanks for sharing Finlay


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:52 pm 
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Finlay the docvumentery made has been shown on TV several times on the history Channel and as part of the BBC "Time Watch" series.
The Scharnhorst lies upside down on the ocean floor - torpedos still in her tubes - her twin rubbers and screw arrangements are a positive id feature.
The ship was utterly destroyed forward of her twin turrets - the bow of the ship just ceased to exist and the remains of it are seperate from the hull.
In the initial engagement with the Burnett's crusier squadron her forward radar was put of action and as a result Fraser ambushed her at close range - point blank range in fact in terms of a heavy gun engagement.
( Bey twice tried to break through to the merchant ships).
Surprised , Admiral Bey knew nothing of Fraser's close proximity until Star Shells burst over her , followed closely by Duke of Yorks opening salvos ,Scharnhorst made her escape - her superior speed opening the range and she almost got away when one of her boilers failed , the drop in speed allowed Fraser to close again - destroyer action further damaged her and from then on the Scharnhorst was lost.

Of all the German capital ships she was perhaps (IMO) simply a beautiful ship her lines were so graceful and she had something that ships need ...luck - she was loved by her crew - much more than a ship - she was their home.

In common with German ships she had problems , her forcastle was almost always "wet" - the graceful "Atlantic bow" never quite solved this problem , she also sat low in the water and even in a moderate sea she was subject to "roll and her decks were almost always "wet".
The sea keeping quality of the ship was actually quite poor.

Her 11 inch guns whilst good for merchant raiding lacked the punch to take on her own kind and in the face of an enemy captial ship she was always out gunned , her own armour was not in the same league but in terms of speed she only once failed to show the British her heels - Boxing day 1943.

A beautiful ship but a compromise in terms of design which left her something of an oddity - more a battle cruiser than a battleship.

Two photos which show the "wet bow" and the "wet decks" of the Scharnhorst Class.

Image
( From "Battleship Scharnhorst" by Koop and Schmolke. ( Conway).*

Image

( From Scharnhorst and Gneisenau - The Elusive Sisters Richard Garrett.

Image

Image

The changing profile of Scharnhorst , following a major refit in 1939 - the long elegant Atlantik bow is clearly shown.
From German Capital Ships of WW2 - by Michael J. Whitley .


Image
Gneisenau from Scharnhorst firing on HMS Glorious. *

BBC doc. on the ship.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... t_01.shtml


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:00 am 
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Campbell , a good read on the Scharnhorst which tells the background of her deploymnet to Norway and the ambush set by Admirla Fraser to lure her out , isolate and sink her.
In balance the author tells of the search to locate her using every resource to hand from the location of wartime wreckage and the loss of trawlling gear from fishing boats , detailed critical analysis of naval charts , to the use of state of the art simulators used in the training of Norwegian naval officers.

A very readable , informative and well researched text. This copy came to me via "the God eBay" and in a few days large tracts of it have been read - a very excellent and highly recommended book.

Scharnhorst by Alf R. Jacobsen. ( Published by Sutton Publishing ISBN 0-7509-3404-2.
An investigative journalist he has worked on serveral majort projects and is the author of 25 books.
In 1997 he was co producer of the TV documentery The Mysteries of the Gaul for which Anglia and Channel Four were awarded the Royal TV Society Awards for best current affairs programme , 1998.

Below are some of the plates from the book which are particularly good.

Image

Image

Two views of the ship including a close up of her bow - that long graceful charcateristic of the capital ships ( Deutschland class apart.)
The shield on the bows is mirrored on the bow of the boat . Just what the crew are doing I am not sure - it does not appear to be anything to do with degausing , possibly washing mud of the anchors.
The elegant nature of the design is to me so much Scharnhorst , she was amongest the most beautiful ships to be built in that era.
The bowflag previously censored can be sen , the one which I have given the rel;ative size to the crew on deck is certainly from a major capital ship.

Image

Image

From the film footage of the wreck which lies upside down on the muddy floor of the Barrent Sea , her torpedos still sit in her tubes never to launch , and one of her secondary gun turrets sits trapped by the sea floor and the deck.
Munitions are scattered all around the wreck which is covered with the remains of trawlling gear lost to the battle cruiser.
Her bows lie broken and twisted some distance from the hull blown away as aresult of a magazine explosion , when death came to Scharnhorst it came sudden and violence.
From memory several easily identifible features of the ship confirm who she is and were spotted on the footage shot , the stern anchor , the shape of the stern - it could only have been her , the front of the bow and the type of screws and twin rudder arrangement - German naval design and 100% Scharnhorst.

Image

This photo would appear to predate her refit - the funnel cap has not been added and her mast arrangement have not changed , the catapult as sataed earlier is still on the rear turret.
Note the stern eagle similar to that recovered from the wreck of Graf Spee.
The huge battle ensign - the ship has yet to lose her seapalne catapult from the roof of her rear tripple 11 inch turret , today this deck is forever buried in the mud of the Arctic Ocean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPi ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_PIPBqvWhk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UtCEx7Ud3Y


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:40 pm 
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I put this on another forum some time back , might be of interest.

I did this for another forum.

I was going to write a quick history of the ship but my command of english and keyboard skills being what they are it may be best to link you to one or two of the better internet sites which can provide a concise and well presented history of this , one of the most graceful and lucky ships to serve in the Kriegsmarine.
( If a ship can be described as being beautiful the Scharnhorst class fulfilled any criteria in this respect).
A few days ago I bought this framed wartime photo of the ship aling with an unknown photo of a crew members, his EK 2nd class ribbon and his cap tally named to the ship. ( No idea who the poor lad is , I may replace the glass to one with modren ultra violet protecting properties and will then get a chance to see if there is anything on the back of the photo and things can then "go from there" , if possible it would be nice to be able to put a name to a face - people deserve that I think ).
Several years ago I turned down a chance to buy a cap tally named to Schanrhorst and to my horror a few weeks later missed an opportunity to buy one named to her sister ship Gneisenau , huge regrets.

She was always a lucky ship but one born of a compromise which at times put her at a disadvantage.
Armed with nine eleven inch guns she had the speed of a cruiser yet she lacked the hitting power of a ship like Bismarck , good for merchant raiding but when she fell on a convy escorted by her own kind she was forced to withdraw , often her orders would forbid her from engaging battleships - the risk of sustaining critical damage far from home and with few friendly ports made this not an unreasonable consideration but it did leave she and her sister ship having to turn away from the very convoys they sought.
One of the few German captital ships to sink a capital ship ( the Aircraft carrier Glorious) she took part in the invasion of Norway , enjoyed two successful cruises before she left the North Atlantic front to return to home waters via the Channel in Feb. 1942 ( Operation Cerberus).
Damaged by a mine off the Dutch Coast following repair she along with other heavy units were concentrated in Norwegian waters. ( Admiral Scheer , Lutzow , Hipper and Tirpitz all part of a fleet in being which was hampered by restrictive orders and lack of resoures and opportunity to attack the PQ convoy routes to Russia.)
Hitler also saw Norway as being a "zone of destiny" and the surface ships found themselves there as much as this reason as any - it also took them out of the range of Allied bombing. The Brest Squadron had spent a year in France being bombed repoaired , bombed again and never being able to be fully operational for long enough to allow for any sortie to be planned , and faced with a Fuhrer who wanted to use them but didn't want to risk them , this put the Navy in an impossible position.

She departed Altenfjord in Northern Norway to intercept a convoy JW55B
on 25th December 43 , unaware that her impending departure was known to the Britsh who had prepared a trap for her.
In bad weather she detached her destroyer escort and sent thenm back heading on to locate and find the convoy - two inconclusive attacks were beaten off by the cruiser escort , one lucky hit damaging her forward radar array.
Retiring to Norway she was unaware of Admiral Fraser moving in to cut her off , ( Flying his flag in the battleship HMS Duke of York along with the cruiser Jamaica with their destroyer escort.
Surprised at night at what was almost pount blank range (11,000 yds) she was illuminated by star shell - what followed was a short and violent radar directed engagement - the British having tracked and closed on the blind and completely helpless Scharnhorst.
You can only consider that the shock must have been absolute to be confronted by an unknown enemy force made up of at least one modern "15" inch battleship and God knows what else.
Hit several times she returned fire before turning North and again found herself confronted by and having to evade the closing crusier squadron *( Burrent) which had previously deterred her attack on the convoy ( HMS Belfast , Norfolk and Sheffield.*)
Heading South towards Norway her speed served her well until damage to her boiler room told on her - as her speed fell away the British having thought their chance had gone found themselves gaining on her.
Attacked by the destroyer escort she was hit by at least four torpedos which further slowed her when Fraser found her his heavy guns reduced her to a blazing wreck , and she sank in heavy seas.
Only 37 of her crew of over 1,100 survived.
British sailors today speak of an order to withdraw , one which they found difficult to understand and many have found this difficult to live with as it seemed to them that they left fellow sailors in the water , men whom they feel could have been saved and even today would feel a bond with.
She was sunk on Boxing day off North Cape and for years was only a memory to the few survivors and to the men who had had to sink her.
In the mid 1990's a Norwegian survey vessel found a large unidentified and uncharted wreck and the Norwegian Navy surveyed the site believing it to be the Scharnhorst.
Needless to say she "was not where she was meant to be" and it took several days search the bottom to be able to find her.
They found the ship lying upside down , her bow section blown completely way probably due to a magazine exploding.
The once beautiful ship is now a complete wrek she lies on her superstructure , the area around her a mass of broken metal and unexploded shells and ordenance.
having seen footage of her on the bottom she can be no other - the twin rudders and triple screw which are unique to german ships stand out clearly , the torpedo tubes , what remains of the bow section , the anchor , the lins of her hull - if you know the ship you won't miss her or call her by another name.

Image

Scharnhorst at anchor, the Atlantic bow is well illustrated here , she did have a refit - her bow being remodeled in an attempt to "cure" her problem of having a "wet bow".

Image

Image

Image

Image

She and her sister ship firing on HMS Glorious and her escort , when you look at this photo there are a number of features unique to German ships and this particular class. The impression one usually has of German capital ships is of long slim lines - when you look at the beam of the ships you get a true impression of their size and beam.

Her sinking of HMS Glorious - Glorious was flying no patrols when she was caught by surprise - Scharnhorst quickly hit her flightdeck and in a short time the carrier was sinking.
The destroyer escort was also sunk but not before "Acasta" had hit Scharnhorst and seriously damaged her with a torpedo hit.
Only 43 sailors of the entire British force were saved , for the British the loss of Glorious was a hard lesson.

Image

I did this for another forum.

I was going to write a quick history of the ship but my command of english and keyboard skills being what they are it may be best to link you to one or two of the better internet sites which can provide a concise and well presented history of this , one of the most graceful and lucky ships to serve in the Kriegsmarine.
( If a ship can be described as being beautiful the Scharnhorst class fulfilled any criteria in this respect).
A few days ago I bought this framed wartime photo of the ship aling with an unknown photo of a crew members, his EK 2nd class ribbon and his cap tally named to the ship. ( No idea who the poor lad is , I may replace the glass to one with modren ultra violet protecting properties and will then get a chance to see if there is anything on the back of the photo and things can then "go from there" , if possible it would be nice to be able to put a name to a face - people deserve that I think ).
Several years ago I turned down a chance to buy a cap tally named to Schanrhorst and to my horror a few weeks later missed an opportunity to buy one named to her sister ship Gneisenau , huge regrets.

She was always a lucky ship but one born of a compromise which at times put her at a disadvantage.
Armed with nine eleven inch guns she had the speed of a cruiser yet she lacked the hitting power of a ship like Bismarck , good for merchant raiding but when she fell on a convy escorted by her own kind she was forced to withdraw , often her orders would forbid her from engaging battleships - the risk of sustaining critical damage far from home and with few friendly ports made this not an unreasonable consideration but it did leave she and her sister ship having to turn away from the very convoys they sought.
One of the few German captital ships to sink a capital ship ( the Aircraft carrier Glorious) she took part in the invasion of Norway , enjoyed two successful cruises before she left the North Atlantic front to return to home waters via the Channel in Feb. 1942 ( Operation Cerberus).
Damaged by a mine off the Dutch Coast following repair she along with other heavy units were concentrated in Norwegian waters. ( Admiral Scheer , Lutzow , Hipper and Tirpitz all part of a fleet in being which was hampered by restrictive orders and lack of resoures and opportunity to attack the PQ convoy routes to Russia.)
Hitler also saw Norway as being a "zone of destiny" and the surface ships found themselves there as much as this reason as any - it also took them out of the range of Allied bombing. The Brest Squadron had spent a year in France being bombed repoaired , bombed again and never being able to be fully operational for long enough to allow for any sortie to be planned , and faced with a Fuhrer who wanted to use them but didn't want to risk them , this put the Navy in an impossible position.

She departed Altenfjord in Northern Norway to intercept a convoy JW55B
on 25th December 43 , unaware that her impending departure was known to the Britsh who had prepared a trap for her.
In bad weather she detached her destroyer escort and sent thenm back heading on to locate and find the convoy - two inconclusive attacks were beaten off by the cruiser escort , one lucky hit damaging her forward radar array.
Retiring to Norway she was unaware of Admiral Fraser moving in to cut her off , ( Flying his flag in the battleship HMS Duke of York along with the cruiser Jamaica with their destroyer escort.
Surprised at night at what was almost point blank range (11,000 yds) she was illuminated by star shell - what followed was a short and violent radar directed engagement - the British having tracked and closed on the blind and completely helpless Scharnhorst.
You can only consider that the shock must have been absolute to be confronted by an unknown enemy force made up of at least one modern "15" inch battleship and God knows what else.
Hit several times she returned fire before turning North and again found herself confronted by and having to evade the closing crusier squadron *( Burrent) which had previously deterred her attack on the convoy ( HMS Belfast , Norfolk and Sheffield.*)
Heading South towards Norway her speed served her well until damage to her boiler room told on her - as her speed fell away the British having thought their chance had gone found themselves gaining on her.
Attacked by the destroyer escort she was hit by at least four torpedos which further slowed her when Fraser found her his heavy guns reduced her to a blazing wreck , and she sank in heavy seas.
Only 37 of her crew of over 1,100 survived.
British sailors today speak of an order to withdraw , one which they found difficult to understand and many have found this difficult to live with as it seemed to them that they left fellow sailors in the water , men whom they feel could have been saved and even today would feel a bond with.
She was sunk on Boxing day off North Cape and for years was only a memory to the few survivors and to the men who had had to sink her.
In the mid 1990's a Norwegian survey vessel found a large unidentified and uncharted wreck and the Norwegian Navy surveyed the site believing it to be the Scharnhorst.
Needless to say she "was not where she was meant to be" and it took several days search the bottom to be able to find her.
They found the ship lying upside down , her bow section blown completely way probably due to a magazine exploding.
The once beautiful ship is now a complete wreck she lies on her superstructure , the area around her a mass of broken metal and unexploded shells and ordenance.
having seen footage of her on the bottom she can be no other - the twin rudders and triple screw which are unique to german ships stand out clearly , the torpedo tubes , what remains of the bow section , the anchor , the lins of her hull - if you know the ship you won't miss her or call her by another name.

Attached the photo and tally.
Scharnhorst at anchor, the Atlantic bow is well illustrated here , she did have a refit - her bow being remodeled in an attempt to "cure" her problem of having a "wet bow".

You will only find named cap tallies for ships in servie prior to September 1939 - there after all sailors wore the simple "Kriegsmarine band".
She and her sister ship firing on HMS Glorious and her escort , when you look at this photo there are a number of features unique to German ships and this particular class. The impression one usually has of German capital ships is of long slim lines - when you look at the beam of the ships you get a true impression of their size and beam.

Her sinking of HMS Glorious - Glorious was flying no patrols when she was caught by surprise - Scharnhorst quickly hit her flightdeck and in a short time the carrier was sinking.
The destroyer escort was also sunk but not before "Acasta" had hit Scharnhorst and seriously damaged her with a torpedo hit.
Only 43 sailors of the entire British force were saved , for the British the loss of Glorious was a hard lesson.

Anton and Bruno Turrets firing on Glorious and her escorts and the carrier herslef left drifting , ablaze and sinking.
the national marking on the bow and the lack of water breaking over her shows her moving at low speed - the gun eleveation is almost nil - the range point blank in terms of a naval engagement. (See above).

The wet bow - the design of the ship was not good interms of seakeeping - the "wet bow" problem was never solved and the forcastle was prone to flooding in even the most moderate seas, the ship rolled quite a bit from side to side , if you check the three previous jpegs you will notice how low to the water she sat.
(See above).

Image

A well know photo of the "Brest Squadron" in the Channel taken from Scharnhorst (Viz. Admiral Ciliax's flagship) , Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen taking up the rear.
The British response ("Operation Fuller") a plan to counter the percieved unlikely hood of the German force returning to Germany via the Channel had been prepared but it fell apart - due partly to bad luck and the sheer cheek of the Germans who had left little to chance.
A faulty radar set in an aircraft , the submarine doing "goal keeper" of Brest missed them and when the Germans were spotted they were almost in the Dover Straits , air cover was leap frogging ahead of the Squadron and a channel was being sweot ahead of them , well screen by surface ships the Royal Navy had been caught on the hop.
My late father was on one of the Dover based MTBs send out on a forlorne hope of damaging the ships - he told me it was an insane venture and they had to fire and turn away having found " the whole German navy was out along with their airforce" , the swordfish attack was destroyed in the air and the destroyer attack from Harrich also lailed , in the event mines laid by Costal Command damaged the two battlecruisers , Scharnhorst for a time was dead in the water with no power at all , the main squadron having to move ahead of her.
It must rank as one of the most daring naval enterprises of the last war - few saw it coming and those who executed it did a brillant job.
In the Channel in broad daylight - the RN had reckoned that if they came at all they would only try and make the passage at night.
Galland planned the aircover and nothing got through to the ships.

Image
The progress of Operation "Cerberus."

The top photo was taken off Cape Farewell , the ship in the lead is a supply ship which had just refuelled her - of note the naval binoculars around the officers neck - a set of 7x50 H Zeiss .
German radar was way behinf =d that of the Americans and British and much reliance was still placed on a visual watch.
This particular set is a very neat piece of gear.
Any period photos take a good look at what folks have around their necks - it is a true annoraks day out !

The final photo - taken in soutern waters on the bridge watching a boatload of merchant men coming along side.
The officer centre has a set of 7x450 smooth ocular Zeiss - the standard naval binocular of the time , good even by today's standards.

the seamen on the port deck - from a well known movie reel , the youngster being talked to by the sneior officer - he was later seen in the film walking around looking for a light to a cigeratte given to him by a German sailor - it made him look very young , what age might he be 15-17 at most ?

Image

Image

Image

The battle of North Cape was the last action fought battleship action fought by the Royal and German Navies.
Gneisenau ended her days as a block ship - she was damaged by RAF Bombing when in home waters and was never repaired , today one of her tripple 11 inch turrets remains as a perfectly preserved battery on Norway.

The Admiral most associated with her was Gunther Lutjens - he died on Bisrmacks ill fated "Operation Rheinubung" in May 41 , Scharnhorst and her consort who were meant to be the southern part of that same operation could not take part - one can only ponder what might have been the out come of such an enterprise given the number of ships in on the final chase.
Hoffmann the man who took her through the Channel.
Hitler on an inspection tour , to him these ships were important as they were a symbol of Germany's rebirth and their loss would represent an equally negative blow to his goverment and to himself.
Hitler never quite got them measure of naval matters - he wanted results yet would take no risks - his frustration resulted in an order that capital ships be scrapped and the materials salvaged be put to other arms programmes - he recinded the order when he was informed that Germany did not have the shipyard capacity to scarp them and continue to build submarines , had it been pressed ahead it would have been a disaster from a production point of view and would have "sunk the German navy" at the stroke of a pen.
By this time Raeder had resigned in protest and Donitz had been appointed to replace him. Donitz harvested what men he could from capital ships for the U-boat arm and as it has been described it marked the "Twilight of the Kriegsmarine" in terms of surface operations.
The last view is of her in Norway - the thick coating of ice on the deck .
The domed range finder units , the optical element was balanced independently of the ship so it was always level no matter what way the ship moved on the sea.
Also characteristic of German capital ships along with the flared Atlantic bows and the sweeping funnels.

With a top speed of over 30 knots this was a racehorse , speed had saved her on several occasions and in the end it would be speed which would let her down.

For a complete history of the ship , her final action and the discovery of her wreck off North Cape , see:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwa...horst_02.shtml
http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/scha...orst_menu.html

Image
Gunter Lutjens.

Image
Hoffmann

Image
The Fuhrer ,who had lacked sealegs.

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Gneisenau , a wreck / blockship in 1945.

Image
At speed , the long elegant bow , the swpet funnel , searchlight cover and domed rangefinder mounts - so very much common features of German capital ships.

An element missing from this little account of Scharnhorst - her encounter SE of Iceland with the Armed Merchant Cruiser HMS Rawalpindi on 23rd November '39.
The two German ships were attempting to break into the Atlantic when they came across the Rawalpindi - an uneven fight .
Challanged Rawalpindi replied "F.A.M." which meant nothing to the Germans , and closed on the two battlecruisers. Again she ignored a demand to stop and instead attempted to escape under the cover of a smoke screen .
As Gneisenau appeared on her starboard quarter Captain Kennedy opened fire and at 17.6 Scharnhorst replied soon finding the range and making repeated hits on the AMC.
Her bridge shot away , the ammunition hoists out of action no lights and on fire it was a one sided battle which the galland Rawalpindi was always going to lose.
One Petty offier recalled it thus.
"It was like an inferno. I called for eight men to come up with me to "B" deck. Live shells and cordite were in the path of sparks and flames shooting from the fires amidships. We began throwing the shells overboard. I an't remember how we reached the deck. The ship was ablaze all over, and being abandoned. About thiry or forty of us went over the side. We saw a waterlogged boat floating past. It was a thousand to one chance of being able to reach it. Some of us did."

A signal lamp from the sinking ship asked for the rescue of the men in the water and when it was reported to Admiral Marschall he ordered fire to cease and closed to pick up survivors , 21 men were taken from the water.
A lookout on Gneisenau noticed a smudge on the horizon which took the shape of a cruiser - HMS Newcastle - the German ships had to leave .
The captain of Rawalpindi was Captain Kennedy , his son Ludovic , later Knighted who was later to become a successful writer and broadcaster with the BBC was then serving as a First Lt.on HMS Tartar - he was later to see Bismrack sunk in May 1941.
Attached Rawlpindi , Scharnhorst - again showing her grace "Atlantic" bow , and an iconic photograph of her making her way through the Channel durring Cerberus , one of the outstanding photographs of the war - it can only be her - no other.
The attached diagram shows the passge through the Channel - a tactical success but it marked the end of all raiding in the Atlantic which would increasingly become the responsibility of Donitz and his U-boat arm.

Image
Rawalpindi

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An often seen phot- more often than not the detail of the flag is removed.

Image
A simple photo which works very well.


Last edited by Tychsen on Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 pm 
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:shock: :shock: fantastic pictures james some very interesting reading also, out of all the ships that Germany had Scharnhorst to me was the most interesting then it was Bismarck :)

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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:33 am 
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Location: Green tree, PA as of Aug. 28, 2010
OK guys question here: are Scharnhorst and Gneisenau twin sisters or are the just sisters? im not two sure!
Nikki

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The mighty beast is wounded, a Swordfish torpedoed the steering gear, with rudder's jammed..is his Achilles Heel with... K.G.V and Rodney closing in for the kill". From "You Must Sink The Bismarck" on youtube..


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:41 am 
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Very little difference between them ,almost identical twins.


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:51 am 
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Excellent post (as always) JS.


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:26 am 
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In the same way Cam that Bismarck and Tirpitz may appear to be "twins" , but Tirpitz was slightly bigger , had a larger displacement and had some technical differences but to look at she appeared to be " a twin".


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:34 pm 
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Guys,
I was sure, if they were twin girls! i always called then that, but wasn't sure if they actually twins or not... RIP TWIN GIRLS..
NIkki


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The mighty beast is wounded, a Swordfish torpedoed the steering gear, with rudder's jammed..is his Achilles Heel with... K.G.V and Rodney closing in for the kill". From "You Must Sink The Bismarck" on youtube..
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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Twins , but not identical ...Bismarck and Tirpitz much the same Tirpitz being slightly bigger. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:25 pm 
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Location: Green tree, PA as of Aug. 28, 2010
guys,
here what get me, Scharnhorst Had a chance to run for home and she didn't, she was a bad ass boat, but she was still a cool ship?
Nikki

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The mighty beast is wounded, a Swordfish torpedoed the steering gear, with rudder's jammed..is his Achilles Heel with... K.G.V and Rodney closing in for the kill". From "You Must Sink The Bismarck" on youtube..


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:53 am 
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She had no idea that Duke of York was going to ambush her , had Bey any knowledge of this he would not have risked her and he would have headed for home.
She lost her forward radar early on and was blind - the information that Duke of York was at sea and near her was never passed on ....had it been he would not have attempted to try and break through to the convoy a second time.
The cruisers were all he was aware of and being so close to the convoy pressing home an attack seemed to Bey (who did not have all the facts) a reasonable chance to take.

We have to look at the events from his point of view , armed with what he knew , Frazer knew for sometime that he would have a chance at taking her - the RN knew via enigma traffic and decrypts that an attack by her was highly likely and Frazer had planned accordingly to draw her out and then to ambush her - for him it worked perfectly - the hit on her forward radar was decisive.

She had also sent her destroyer escort home - when Frazer hit her it was from about 12,000 yards point blank range in terms of a big gun engagement.


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 Post subject: Re: Scharnhorst
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:51 pm
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Location: Green tree, PA as of Aug. 28, 2010
Guys,
she was a bad ass boat, but she was still a cool ship? but i like what Fraser said about her! if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today”. and no, one know how for that is from the be right?? RIP Girl! but in a way she was still just a baby at 4 and half- years old!
Nikki

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The mighty beast is wounded, a Swordfish torpedoed the steering gear, with rudder's jammed..is his Achilles Heel with... K.G.V and Rodney closing in for the kill". From "You Must Sink The Bismarck" on youtube..


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