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 Post subject: German shovel?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:48 am 
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Location: US of A
Found this straight E-tool for sale and the seller describes it as a "European Entrenching Tool Straight edge"

Don't think it's German, but what nationality is it from? was thinking of getting it if it would work as a German one.....

P.S. sorry for the low quality and small photo...it's the only one the seller has :?


Attachments:
etool_mc221.jpg
etool_mc221.jpg [ 17.64 KiB | Viewed 3732 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:35 pm
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Location: UK
It looks to me like the original British '37 pattern e-tool?
Perfect for the BEF period.
Not exactly rare but not that common either, add it to your collection if you can get it for around £25 or equivalent. That's a low end of what they fetch in UK.


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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:57 pm
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Location: Sud west
I thought it looked Swiss ...

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:51 pm 
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Location: Shropshire UK (The heart of England)
Halle wrote:
I thought it looked Swiss ...


Yes mate agreed Halle, it looks Swiss like my own which is certainly acceptable
to use for a German portrayal imho, just get a rigid e-tool cover for it :wink:

British 37 pattern e-tools usually look like this and come apart (see below)
Attachment:
37 pat e tool.jpg
37 pat e tool.jpg [ 8.49 KiB | Viewed 3665 times ]


Pipes

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:46 am 
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Location: UK
http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/ ... tools.html
Early war British webbing and equipment doesn't seem to be your expert field?
The shovel Tommy went into France with was exactly of this pattern. Only later was the two part E-tool of the pre first war design(actually from the '08 pattern web set) re-adopted, 1941 being cited by most sources.
The version you show with the addional fitting for a spike bayonet was only seen very late on.
The op could have a Swiss shovel, its very hard to tell from the photo he posts. What pushed me towards the British Linneman tool was the two tone paint job on the blade. Is that usual on Swiss tools? It is on British.
Truth be told, Germany was only one of a large number of nations that used the Linneman pattern spade. The design was patented in 1869. Without better photos or details of any stamps we might never know where or when it comes from..
http://m55q.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/linn ... l-den.html


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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:52 am 
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Location: Sud west
SplinterA ,
Yup it does look like the British pattern you've given a reference to ... what makes me think its Swiss , though , is the rivets , which don't seem to appear on the British pattern . Could be wrong , entrenching tools ain't my strong suit ... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Location: Shropshire UK (The heart of England)
SplinterA wrote:
http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/1937_entrenching_tools_tools.html
Early war British webbing and equipment doesn't seem to be your expert field?
The shovel Tommy went into France with was exactly of this pattern. Only later was the two part E-tool of the pre first war design(actually from the '08 pattern web set) re-adopted, 1941 being cited by most sources.
The version you show with the addional fitting for a spike bayonet was only seen very late on.
The op could have a Swiss shovel, its very hard to tell from the photo he posts. What pushed me towards the British Linneman tool was the two tone paint job on the blade. Is that usual on Swiss tools? It is on British.
Truth be told, Germany was only one of a large number of nations that used the Linneman pattern spade. The design was patented in 1869. Without better photos or details of any stamps we might never know where or when it comes from..
http://m55q.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/linn ... l-den.html


Thanks for the info, yes British shovels aren't my particular
field of expertise, i had no access to a link earlier as you did
as i was on my mobile, the problem was you mis-quoted the
British rigid type in your earlier post as a "37 pattern" which it is
infact a "1939 pattern", hence my confusion ?? (see your own link)

The pic i posted earlier is infact correct this is a "37 pattern" as stated
in your link, although i have owned a couple, one was a dated WW1 type
which was exactly the same as the pic above (apart from the shaft) which
was dated 1916 and the other a 1943 dated version, but cheers for the link

Peiper ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Location: UK
If you have a look around the web there are many of this type with rivets credited as the British version.
As I said, so many nations, so many makers, over such a long time, there are so many possibilities.
Unless we see stamps we can't be sure.


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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Location: UK
It is confusing.
It was the first e-tool issued with the 37 pattern webbing but wasnt officially a part of the 37 pattern set.
This type of tool was also issued with the 39 pattern set, the carriers were of the same pattern in both sets but the materials were different of course.
So strictly speaking it isnt the 39 pattern unless issued in the 39 pattern carrier, which it never was to front line troops.
The 39 pattern e-tool was issued with the 37 pattern set in 1940 in a web carrier whilst what became the 37 pattern tool wasnt introduced until mid 1941.
What a mess of nomenclature.


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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Evening guys,

What do you think about this spade? No stampings on the metal.


Attachments:
DSC02614 (1024x768) (640x480).jpg
DSC02614 (1024x768) (640x480).jpg [ 159.29 KiB | Viewed 3614 times ]
DSC02610 (1024x768) (640x480).jpg
DSC02610 (1024x768) (640x480).jpg [ 191.31 KiB | Viewed 3614 times ]
DSC02612 (1024x768) (640x480).jpg
DSC02612 (1024x768) (640x480).jpg [ 181.25 KiB | Viewed 3614 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:41 pm 
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Its a fake, check out the ground out/sanded areas where the stamps were. All other German spades are stamped on the spade face, no other German spades I've seen are stamped on the wood.


Attachments:
DSC02620 (640x480) (640x480).jpg
DSC02620 (640x480) (640x480).jpg [ 178.95 KiB | Viewed 3604 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:54 pm 
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I was going to say i have never seen any stampings on German spades
on the handle before, what is it then a re-stamped Swiss type ??

Pipes

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:58 pm 
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I believe it's British 39 pattern. Where the stamps are ground is the same as on a Brit one. Three people over on facebook also agree its British.

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:45 am 
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Konzert-Meister wrote:
I believe it's British 39 pattern. Where the stamps are ground is the same as on a Brit one. Three people over on facebook also agree its British.


Fair play.... very similar though ;-)

Cheers Pipes

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 Post subject: Re: German shovel?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:07 am 
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peiper1944 wrote:
very similar though

Hasn't that been the whole theme of this thread? :D
The fact, that so many nations over such a long period made and used this pattern of spade, that unless the spade is clearly marked it cannot be identified as belonging to one nation alone.


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