aged gear.

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DER SOLDATEN
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aged gear.

Post by DER SOLDATEN »

Just a random thought on aged gear.
If you were issue a pair of ammo pouches in 1940 and they were made in say 1939.
You are the first person to ever wear these. This can go for really any gear tunic, helmet ,jack boot.... so on.
Why is it that most reenactors have to age or weather the gear before using it in the field.
I mean it was at some point brand new.Not 70 years old. It has never seen combat.
I wonder just how long it takes to wear gear out. I have seen helmets,ammo pouches and other originals that were not that weathered.
Just keep in mind that it is new. At some point it will become worn out, but according to my research men were given new equipment after
leave and before a campaign.
Just a thought.
I have also seen field repairs on bread bags.Why not just get another bread bag. I'm sure the dead guy next to you won't mind.
I'm guilty of this myself.But if the geear is new it's not farby. It's just new.Right???? lol
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der Blutiger Eimer
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Re: aged gear.

Post by der Blutiger Eimer »

Yes and no. This is a fairly common debate, but at the risk of beating a dead horse...

Things should look lived-in, but not 80 years old. If you're portraying anyone who's been in the field for say, even a week, think about it. That's 21 times the mess kit has been used. 7 days worth of marching in the boots. 7 days of living in one change of clothes, wearing the same helmet/cap. Marching in dust or mud, pushing through brush, crawling, etc. you shouldn't look like you just bought the stuff and it could still have the tags on it.

Personally, most of my GI gear is original stuff in good, used shape. Not rags, not freshly ironed, just lived-in. Most of the German stuff I'm accumulating is repro, so I make sure I wear stuff a bit, keeping it clean, but breaking it in.

So stuff really should never look like it is more than a few years old, and nothing so badly damaged it would need replacing under normal circumstances.
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DER SOLDATEN
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Re: aged gear.

Post by DER SOLDATEN »

I agree with the lived in look.
But some take it to far. Ammo pouches that are almost toataly smooth.
Bread bags with field repairs.Just seem a bit too far.
I have started to go with the repro apporach for German.
The original just don't hold up well after 70 years.
Of course the sick feeling you get when you destroy a piece of history.
Won't do that again.
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mikebie
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Re: aged gear.

Post by mikebie »

Talking about this for years. Wearing it will age it. Same should go for helmets/uniforms.
Last edited by mikebie on Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pz Gren Hoffmann
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Re: aged gear.

Post by Pz Gren Hoffmann »

I agree, epsecially when it comes to helmets.
It's retarded, they use pre-aged decals, scratch them up with sand paper, apply gun bluing/browning on bare metal to make it look old and rusty, rub shoe cream on them, and all kinds of dumb stuff that doesn't look even close to natural wear, and then they spray them with clearcoat to protect it?! :roll:

The gear should look lived in though, i try to use my stuff in between events to break them in if possible, like my SM winter parka for example, i've been using it daily for the whole winter season, and the white side has gotten quite filthy, but it's all natural wear, and it looks great! :)

However i don't get what you're saying about field repairs, if your stuff broke, you fixed it? I mean they got sewing kits for a reason? I'm having a hard time beliving they just took whatever they needed of some random dead guys all the time.
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DER SOLDATEN
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Re: aged gear.

Post by DER SOLDATEN »

Simple on the field repair, if you had to fix something of course you would. But your talking about things made in the hundreds of thousands or more.
Where would you find the time to sew a bread bag. I mean a tunic is a bit different. Most of these field repairs were done in non combat zone and reissued to guys needing equipment.Like reissued helmets do you think the common landser would have had a can of paint on hand,of course not.
Sewing socks and rips on you tunic is not very time consuming .But were would you find a leather needle.You see pictures of soldiers polishing boots. But is not the whole damn unit. Its two or three guys doing it for the unit.The others are more than likely digging holes or repairing bunkers.
They had collection points for this type of duty.To recycle and repair battle damaged gear.But you would not have time to wait for it. Hold on Hiedler My boots are not ready yet and my helmet the paint is not quite dry yet. Towards the end of the war anything is possible.But have I ever seen photos of men with repaired gear? You would simply get another one.There would be another station for gear of the dead.You would not have to remove it from random dead guy as some one else has already done this for you.There are interviews of soldaten taking iron rations and ammo from the dead. So why not a new canteen since yours has a hole in it. Or maybe they with have the tools to fix it in the next town as you die of thirst on the way My basic point is this gear is new.
It's not as if they had to wait for it to appear on e-bay or a vendor to mail it.It was everywhere.This could explain ill fitting clothing as well.
Of course someone will chime in with the old ... but it's field made.Yes this is a modern collectors term for non issue.Most field made items were made by tailors and men behind the lines.Would you sit in your fox hole sewing while people are trying to kill you less than a hundred yards ?away it's about necessity .Most of true combat soldiers did not carry as much of this crap as people think anyway.It stays on a wagon until needed.
Which brings up another gripe, most of your razors and soap are all so on this wagon. In the front lines they only cared about staying alive.So unshaven men with long hair smelling of BO would be very common. Look at Signal magazine. You will find soldiers receiving medals in dirty uniforms unshaven and yes with out some of there issue equipment service shirts.In front of officers.At the end of the day you would want nothing more of life than to sleep and eat.As far as the dead you would get used to that after a while.It would still be hard to lose a comrade but as nameless faceless men appear more than likely you would just not care.Remember that seen from all quiet on the western front where the lead character get his new boots. Where did he get those boots?A good book to read is Blood red snow.He tells of all of this, guys he is not sure if he knows as they look different and unshaven.He talks about surviving like rats and a simple task of collecting food containers took hours in combat.In closing I just don't see where they would find the time.
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Re: aged gear.

Post by grenmartens »

Field repairs were common and were mostly conducted at regimental and/or company level by designated unit tailors, cobblers, saddlers etc. Forget this idea of new kit issue for units that spent lengthy periods at or close to the front - it didn't happen then and it doesn't happen nowadays either! When I joined the British Army in 1980 I was issued with webbing that was at least 10 years old - at first I was gutted that I'd been issued with secondhand kit - until I saw the 'webbing rash' on the guys with the new stuff :twisted:
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Re: aged gear.

Post by GraemeMac »

How is sewing socks or a tunic any less time consuming than a breadbag?

If I put a nick in my breadbag, and I wasn't immediately on the front line - ie not in combat, and not up to my balls in death and destruction, with wounded and dead everywhere with kit to pilfer, it'd be getting sewn.

Just my 2p.
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grenmartens
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Re: aged gear.

Post by grenmartens »

GraemeMac wrote:How is sewing socks or a tunic any less time consuming than a breadbag?

If I put a nick in my breadbag, and I wasn't immediately on the front line - ie not in combat, and not up to my balls in death and destruction, with wounded and dead everywhere with kit to pilfer, it'd be getting sewn.

Just my 2p.
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Re: aged gear.

Post by Gebirgsziege »

I would add that I can think of no army that sees/saw rummaging, or pilfering, from your own dead as anything but heinus, "unless" you are in need of food or ammunition [the basics to survive in a desperate environment]. I know that people become immune to death, but it is more so directed at the enemy and not so much towards your own. I am sure that this is why speacially designated units are always established to perform reclamation whether it be for vehicles, clothing, etc.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, I myself have repaired my own field gear while deployed, and am certain I was not the only guy to do it. Whether it was by glue, tape, or thread. If it broke, cut, tore, or just plainly fell apart at the seams, you fixed it because you needed it.

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Re: aged gear.

Post by DER SOLDATEN »

I was unclear on the bread bag .Guy showed up at an event with a bread bag made of two different bags he replaced the whole back side .
A called it a field repair.It took two bag to make one. Where did he get the other bag?
Where would a German soldier find super glue in 1942.
A nick in a bag is nothing same as a tunic and socks.
But total replacement of a sleeve is just stupid.To make a whole new bag is also stupid.
So as you guys see it there were never replacement items given to troops.
This also means that you guys can at last use those short pre war gas mask canisters .
I don't recall any German soldiers in ww2 having 10 year old gear.Unless you count the WWI helmets that were so common.
I tried once to use tape on my K98 when the stock broke in half worked like a dream, on the extractor too.
If I lost my mess kit and canteen I would make sure I found it. I'm sure the Russians would not mind me searching for it.
Hell I would just go naked before I would take clothes from a dead guy with winter fast approaching.What would the others in my unit think of me.
I would love to see some field repair made to German leather equipment with just a sewing kit.

Web I can see, wool I can see. But leather with one of those needles forget it.
We are talking about combat on a major scale not just being in the army when there is nothing going on.
Not to say that you guys have not seen combat.
But how long were you there and was it a world war?

This is not 1980, we are talking ww2.
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DER SOLDATEN
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Re: aged gear.

Post by DER SOLDATEN »

Gebirgsziege wrote:I would add that I can think of no army that sees/saw rummaging, or pilfering, from your own dead as anything but heinus, "unless" you are in need of food or ammunition [the basics to survive in a desperate environment]. I know that people become immune to death, but it is more so directed at the enemy and not so much towards your own. I am sure that this is why speacially designated units are always established to perform reclamation whether it be for vehicles, clothing, etc.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, I myself have repaired my own field gear while deployed, and am certain I was not the only guy to do it. Whether it was by glue, tape, or thread. If it broke, cut, tore, or just plainly fell apart at the seams, you fixed it because you needed it.

David
I do agree, as I said necessity.
This is a thread on foolish repairs.There are tings you can repair and or get by with until you could get a replacemet.
There are something you just can not repair.Then what would you do.The NCO would make that choice for you. You don't seem to have a helmet.
Here you go. Where did this come from? Shut up and get movin.
It did happen.
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Re: aged gear.

Post by m1steelpot »

The Germany army of WWII pilfered and robbed its way across eastern Europe.

Not only that, but they also stole from their own dead, if you want to call it that. Uniforms and equipment were taken from the dead and reissued. Your K98 pouches could have been removed from a dead man, cleaned, and issued to you.

It's pretty grim.

DER SOLDATEN wrote:
Gebirgsziege wrote:I would add that I can think of no army that sees/saw rummaging, or pilfering, from your own dead as anything but heinus, "unless" you are in need of food or ammunition [the basics to survive in a desperate environment]. I know that people become immune to death, but it is more so directed at the enemy and not so much towards your own. I am sure that this is why speacially designated units are always established to perform reclamation whether it be for vehicles, clothing, etc.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, I myself have repaired my own field gear while deployed, and am certain I was not the only guy to do it. Whether it was by glue, tape, or thread. If it broke, cut, tore, or just plainly fell apart at the seams, you fixed it because you needed it.

David
I do agree, as I said necessity.
This is a thread on foolish repairs.There are tings you can repair and or get by with until you could get a replacemet.
There are something you just can not repair.Then what would you do.The NCO would make that choice for you. You don't seem to have a helmet.
Here you go. Where did this come from? Shut up and get movin.
It did happen.
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grenmartens
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Re: aged gear.

Post by grenmartens »

DER SOLDATEN wrote:I was unclear on the bread bag .Guy showed up at an event with a bread bag made of two different bags he replaced the whole back side .
A called it a field repair.It took two bag to make one. Where did he get the other bag?
Where would a German soldier find super glue in 1942.
A nick in a bag is nothing same as a tunic and socks.
But total replacement of a sleeve is just stupid.To make a whole new bag is also stupid.
So as you guys see it there were never replacement items given to troops.
This also means that you guys can at last use those short pre war gas mask canisters .
I don't recall any German soldiers in ww2 having 10 year old gear.Unless you count the WWI helmets that were so common.
I tried once to use tape on my K98 when the stock broke in half worked like a dream, on the extractor too.
If I lost my mess kit and canteen I would make sure I found it. I'm sure the Russians would not mind me searching for it.
Hell I would just go naked before I would take clothes from a dead guy with winter fast approaching.What would the others in my unit think of me.
I would love to see some field repair made to German leather equipment with just a sewing kit.

Web I can see, wool I can see. But leather with one of those needles forget it.
We are talking about combat on a major scale not just being in the army when there is nothing going on.
Not to say that you guys have not seen combat.
But how long were you there and was it a world war?

This is not 1980, we are talking ww2.
Mate - you (along with many like you) are one of the reasons that this forum is increasingly pointless. You stay in your world and ignore folks that might just have a little more of a handle on things than you - because it's suits your opinion and delusion.

Why bother coming on here with a question if the only answer you're looking for is the one that you want to here :shock:

I'll leave you to it - 'soldier' :lol:

PS. Thousands of WW2 German Bread Bags were manufactured using two diffferent types of cloth by the way - the back panal was frequently produced in a different linen weave to the front section. As I'm sure you were aware!
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Re: aged gear.

Post by Mikkel »

Well said grenmartens. That sadly rings very true of too many discussions here. it seem people are more interested in having others to say that their fantasy ideas are ok, than doing substantial research themselves. It moves reenactment from 'living history' into the category of 'fantasy dress up'.
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