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 Post subject: Which assault badge?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:54 pm 
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In a muddle...

Panzergrenadier-Lehr Regiment 901. Would they receive the bronze infantry assault badge as motorised infantry, or the bronze panzer assault badge being part of the armoured division/ fighting from armoured halftracks?


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 Post subject: Re: Which assault badge?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:56 pm 
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Panzergrenadiers were awarded Bronze Infantry Assault badges when participating in actions from SPWs (Half tracks to you)
Bronze Panzer Assault badges usually went to Stug and Assault gun crews.

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 Post subject: Re: Which assault badge?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:00 pm 
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Excellent, thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Which assault badge?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:49 pm 
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Paul, do you have a source for that? This ww2 folder (to get the youth in the motorized and mechanized forces) says something else.

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According to this:

Panzerkampfabzeichen (bronze) = Panzergrenadierregiments*, kradschützenbataillons, spähwagen (Aufklarungs units)
Infanteriesturmabzeichen (bronze) = Infanterieregiments (Motorisiert)
(allgemeine) Sturmabzeichen (silber) = other units fighting within the Panzerdivision

(*Schützenregiments = pre '42 naming of the Panzergrenadierregiments)

So for your unit you would need a bronze panzer assault badge.

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 Post subject: Re: Which assault badge?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:36 pm 
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That's exactly what confused me in the context of the two panzergrenadier-lehr regiments, being either 'motorised infantry' (bronze infantry assault badge) or part of the wider panzer-lehr division (panzer badge).

I did a little research before posting the intitial question only to find conflicting information:

"Infantry assault badge in bronze issued to motorised troops. Infantry assault badge in silver to infantry" however the same source goes on to describe the panzer assault badge,
"Bronze panzer badge issued to panzer-grenadier regiments, assault gun crews, armoured reconnaisance crews" etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Which assault badge?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:28 am 
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As often with many questions about 'German stuff', the answers are not quite black and white and often lead to further questions before being able to answer the original question. One major point is at what point in time are you looking at? You have to remember that between 1933 and 1945 a lot changed, from how formations were refered to, to regulations and how and when they were applied. The answers to these questions are not as clear cut as many 'educated' people believe due to the fact that so much changed, so what would be a right answer for 1940 may not be a right answer for 1944.

This is similar to a debate which cropped up on our own forum quite a while ago, which can be viewed at http://82.147.22.3/~gdrecon/forum/viewt ... c552906c57
The question you have asked needs to be considered in much the same way, to which this is my understanding of things:-

Ha-ha! Here we enter another debate of almost similar nature. According to my references, the Panzer Assault Badge in bronze was open to members of:
- armoured reconnaissance units of the rifle battalions of Panzer divisions
- crews or armoured cars and other armoured vehicles that were not classed as tanks

So for armoured reconnaissance soldiers to get this badge, they had to be from recce units of Panzer divisions, not from recce units of Infantry or other divisions. For GD this would depend on what period of the war you are portraying, as it changed as the war went on.

The Infantry Assault Badge in bronze was open to members of:
- motorised or armoured Infantry
When GD was first being formed in April 1939 it was an Infantry regiment, but by October 1939 it had become a motorised Infantry regiment. It ended the war as a Panzergrenadier Division.

As for the General Assault Badge, this was instituted for soldiers who were not eligable for the silver versions of the Infantry Assault Badge and Panzer Assault Badge. For the silver Infantry Assault Badge, you had to be a member of an Infantry Regiment, Grenadier Regiment, Fusilier Regiment, Rifle Regiment or Mountain Rifle Regiment. For the silver Panzer Assault Badge, you had to be a member of a tank crew. The idea of the General Assault Badge was to cover soldiers of other trades in the army, particularly Pioniers (Combat Engineers who would very often be found on the front line under fire), but it wasn't specific to them as sometimes stated. Indeed, some Soldbuch references actually list it as the Pionier Sturmabzeichen. Armoured reconnaissance and assault artillery fall into this category, among others from any other part of the army who found themselves in the midst of battle (even Kreigsberichters). This can be confusing to some people as certain trades may or may not fall into this category. An example of this would be a signaller. A signaller who is part of an Infantry Regiment is not the same as a signaller from a Signals Regiment. Therefore the first may get the Infantry Assault Badge, but the second may get the General Assault Badge.

All 3 of these awards were instituted on 1st June 1940. The silver versions of the Infantry Assault Badge and Panzer Assault Badge had been instituted since 20th December 1939, but many soldiers who saw action were not eligable for these awards, hence why these 3 new badges were created

Of course this can be made confusing when looking at wartime photos, as Mick stated, soldiers often moved from unit to unit, meaning that someone from the Infantry may have been awarded a silver Infantry Assault Badge, but later moved to a Reconnaissance unit. He would still wear the award he was originally issued, so this is why sometimes you see things like silver Infantry Assault Badges on Panzer black uniforms.

To make things even more confusing, as the war progressed, the category that a reconnaissance unit fell into also changed as time went on. At first they were classed as motorised infantry, but later in the war they classed as armoured units and therefore more in line with Panzers. So earlier in the war you may have been awarded the General Assault or maybe the Infantry Assault in bronze, but towards the end of the war, the same action would have earned you the Panzer Assault in bronze instead.

Whichever one you choose to wear could be dependant on not only what period of the war you are portraying at the time, but also your character history.

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 Post subject: Re: Which assault badge?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Inadvertantly opened can of worms it seems :lol:

I dug out a few reference books this morning and found on p.21 of Osprey German Army 1939-45 (5) (Western Front 43-45) there is a period photgraph of two luftwaffe men in assault gun-wraps 'Sturmartillerie-brigade 12' both wearing luftwaffe awards.

So it could be feasible for a 1944 member of panzergrenadier-lehr 901 to wear awards earned from earlier service? In realtion to Panzergrenadier-lehr 901 from 1942-43 era the infantry assault badge in bronze (Lehr regiment 901(Motorised)) then in 1944 onwards the panzer-badge in bronze as part of the Panzer-Lehr division (Panzergrenadier-Lehr Regiment 901)?


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 Post subject: Re: Which assault badge?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm 
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@rednas - My answer was going to go down the lines of EddieGD's so won't clog the thread with the same thing twice - I have always tried to go with the usual instances not the extraordinary -
@ Eddie - I agree with your findings and your thinking

@ LehrGrenadier - Speak to your unit CO (If you are in Panzer Lehr) who will advice you on what it is permitted and feasible to wear.

To close - this goes back to one of my postsd somewhere on here - 116 Windhund always had an award system. It was written down what could be awarded and the critera for making the award. This way people knew what to work towards and what was at the end of it. It made the unit look uniform and in keeping. Awards were made on a points/achievment system. It made sense and it motivated some.

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