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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:57 pm 
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at least hoover will be happy...


No, I am not happy. Why should I? I discussed the problems about the problems we all are facing with here. Neither I nor others tried to stop the event. Only some wouldn´t have come. Thats all.

But the postings show that some still don´t understand a shit.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Hoover wrote:
Quote:
at least hoover will be happy...


No, I am not happy. Why should I? I discussed the problems about the problems we all are facing with here. Neither I nor others tried to stop the event. Only some wouldn´t have come. Thats all.

But the postings show that some still don´t understand a shit.

Twisty turny liar.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:45 am 
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I've been thinking about this........ It's obvious that after the "Pulver-Kurt" episode Fallingbostel would be affected in much the same way as Baumholder, for example, no more events likely on USA and UK bases in the near future.

With most bases in Germany closing in the next five to ten years time anyway, then it is safe to conclude that
"Pulver-Kurt" has effectively halted all WK2 reenactment within Germany, which will also probably include Bundeswehr
camps too. I think this has put the German reenactment scene back about ten years, with consequences
far worse than the Peter Schultz incident ever could have done. (Yes - I know about that too)

There are those Germans who can not, or will not, see that they are only denying the truth and not taking into account
the wider picture. So, where can they play now? Perhaps the UK? But as we know recently, several of the
players have dirtied their hands good and proper and we all know who they are. Not looking rosy in Deutschland now - is it?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:24 am 
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Just for the record, the East Yorks group in Germany deeply regrets that it has been found necessary to cancel this event. We had been planning to attend as one of our main events this year.

I do find that much of the "hype" regarding this event was caused by over-reaction to some German groups' reservations about the presence of SS re-enactors, as well as by the over-reaction of some of the German groups themselves.

Stating reservations is not the same as being opposed to something, but many readers do not accept this. Add personal problems with one or some of those posting, and you have a flame war such as happened here, which in itself has severely damaged the current scene in Germany. Many participants in this discussion have risen to each others' bait, and the whole thing has become very distasteful.

Everyone believes themselves to be in the right. The only difference is that those outside Germany have nothing to lose in their intervention in the hobby here. I have no objection to support being given to actions or intentions of groups in Germany, but find it strange that UK groups take the podium to argue the point for things that are alleged to come from German groups themselves, although these groups fail to communicate such actions or intentions to others who may be either interested in or affected by their actions or plans.

The question of SS re-enactment in Germany is very sensitive, and must be handled with kid gloves. There is a very real risk of long-term damage to the hobby here. Whilst SS re-enactment may indeed technically be legal, many aspects of the practical implementation are open to interpretation by the authorities involved as a result of the nature of the German legal system. A grant of permission by the authorities in Niedersachsen for an event in a British barracks may well have no imfluence whatsoever on the situation elsewhere.

On the question of the various possibilities for legal interpretation, within the next few weeks I will be discussing this with one of our members, who may be able to give a more conclusive insight into the situation, as he happens to be directly involved in the legal system himself as a judge.

Please note that I refrained from involving myself in this discussion until now, as I was afraid that any further expansion would have a detrimental effect on the Fallingbostel event.

I am willing to enter into any civilized and sensible discussion on this matter. If your answers are insulting, facetious or just plain rude, they will be commented on and otherwise ignored.

Best regards

snapper


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:31 pm 
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As most of the remarks could be seen to apply to me Mike - I'll enter into the fray - knowing full well that these words will be cut and pasted and analysed on German fora - Fora which are increasingly closing their doors to observers and becoming members only affairs - Signs of paranoia? I'd say so. Good signs to the Authorities? I'd say not. Having the appropriate background I'd inform those who think making forums closed affairs do not protect them from prying eyes. The Authorities will read them with as much ease as before. And that's not an attempt to instill fear - (Some Germans are doing a very good job on that score already) it's information and a warning to continue to conduct yourselves in a lawful manner. Hiding is not a good idea. It enforced the notion that there is something to hide. Openness and transparency are good things. But not something I've EVER seen in the German scene.

It is good to know that you have no personal problem with Waffen SS reenactment and it may be juristically allowed in Germany. You are going to discuss this with a judge - Would that be Tom Scholle? Perhaps it would be pertinent also to discuss the deactivation of weapons in Germany too. I am sure a piece of tissue does not effectively have the desired effect. Mind if one looks down the barrel it will make it appear blocked. :lol: In re-enactment everywhere - many people have skeletons in their closets and throwing stones may not be a good idea when either living in or standing close to a glass house.

It is mentioned above that Brit's seem to be "Meddling" in German affairs from abroad. Perhaps what gives Brits the right to discuss things over there in Germany are the facts that German reenactors like Dietrich blame the UK scene for damaging their reputation by allowing Waffen SS impressions at public events. Or people like "Blumenteufel" or "Cheffahrer" on the WK2 reenactment forum, ripping posts from this Pst!forum apart whenever they can. Or is it simply the fact that some arrogant twats try to impose their "rules" on others, when the german constitution preaches the right on free will and free speech as long as the laws are respected? I have no real answers - I know my "meddling" started as a genuine attempt to help foster a scene in Germany that could reach out and benefit Germans, Europeans and British alike.
I mean - it is interesting to note that recent media reports in Germany have clearly quoted from German forums and even the odd quote from the PST! forum.
They have even used a photo that was obviously taken from a reenactment forum in Germany, I believe the owner of the photo is considering legal action.
No wonder then that Volker has closed his forum to "guests", as now only registered members can read.....will Hoover follow this example?

On the German forum last Friday you could read the following by Cheffahrer (Willi Fuchs):

Gerüchte sprechen von einem "illegalen" Waffenhändler, der unter anderem auch scharfe Waffen verkauft
haben soll, bis ihm die Fahnder dahinter gekommen sind. Bei einer Razzia wurde auch die Kundenkartei
mitgenommen und jeder Kunde darf nun mit "Besuch" rechnen.

Auch in unserer Nachbarstadt wurden bei einem Sammler ca. 200 Waffen und Munition beschlagnahmt!


Translation for Non German Speakers:

Rumours tell of a further "illegal" weapons dealer who supplied collectors with non-deacts.
During a raid his list of customers fell into police hands, so we can expect more house searches.

In a town near by another collection of 200 weapons and ammunition was confiscated.

This to me proves that the big debates about forbidden symbols, swastikas etc, was just a big smokescreen
all along. It never was the question of runes breaking the German reenactment scenes neck,
it will be the question of hoards of illegal weapons! The police are busy, I bet the reenactors are busy too! With shovels!!!!!

It's all chaos over there and is being whipped up by headless chickens from what I see. For the time being there are no answers - There is no real strategy and there is certainly no cohesion. There is still the little cabal trying to protect its own arse and keep the position it perceives it has. Mike - I think you're on a hiding to nothing - Really, apart from geographical location you have no more right or influence to do anything than I have....... I wouldn't risk losing friends and allies over it. Just carry on enjoying your weekends and plough your own furrow until the storm has passed. Mind you - I will add - it's different over here. We welcome ex pat Germans, visiting Dutch, Belgian, French, Spanish, US, Canadian, Swedes, Finns, you name it in fact - into our ranks and we not only make them welcome - we embrace some of their thinking......... it truly fleshes out our scene and makes us one of the liveliest and vibrant out there.

Maybe you see this as insulting, facetious and rude - Maybe not - but I bet it gets ported over and over analysed. Strange that in a negative way my words have so much weight. Perhaps if some people were willing to give some of the ideas a go - such as having left Fallingbostel the hell alone - things could be different and progress? Think about this angle - IF and I say IF, some people hadn't immediately started telephoning Kevin and "advising" him....... IF they had sat back, watched, not interfered and let the event go ahead. Then MAYBE there would have been a precedent upon which to base further developments. Now we will never know because stupid tiny minded people poisoned it and killed it. Had Fallinbostel been a success with no trouble, it could have been held up as an example of how things can be done and what is permissible. Anyone genuinely wanting growth and having no real, personal objection to runes would have gone for that. Instead it was strangled, stabbed and as I say poisoned. It was not allowed to go on and the organiser put under so much unfair and unwarranted pressure as to cause him great personal distress. I hope the perpetrators are proud of themselves for having caused that. So now you will never know if it would have been closed down, caused a media storm and perhaps finalised the question of SS runes in Germany. No - to the benefit of the scaremongers, liars and charlatans, the myth perpetuates. No progress made.

I don't think you'll last long on here Mike as a crusader for German re-enactment. There is no trust in what most of your camp say any more. There is little interest save from the likes of me and I've had my balls chopped off in the matter because the "opposition" is too deeply entrenched. All you will get is my diatribes and the odd piss take from such users as the Rt Hon Herr Meyer (who incidentally is from Lancashire so please excuse him) In fact if I get bored and stop answering you'll be shouting into the void. I am inclined to let Germany stew in its own juices because from what I've seen and in good owd Yoksha vernacular - "They couldn't run a tap"

Riight - I'm off to put some puddings in because as you will probably remember - half two is Sunday dinner over here. Alsithi.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Hope you enjoyed your dinner, Paul!

I must say, that was quite an accurate analysis of the situation. Couldn't have done better myself.

I won't comment here on who the judge might be. I don't chuck names around on public fora myself, not the done thing, especially when they are German citizens holding public office. Even when they have nothing to hide, this can cause certain problems in their professional lives, which happens to be the source of most of the perceived and, in many cases, actual "paranoia" which seems to pervade within German re-enacting circles.

As the leader and spokesman of a German-based group with predominantly German members, I feel I do have every right to speak for and in the German "scene", although I am more of the opinion that there are several parallel scenes, with many re-enactors moving freely between them.

Skeletons in Closets is something some people may be afraid of, I agree. Just don't believe everything you are led to believe about the number and size of those skeletons. Some skeleton stories do, in fact, get told in certain ways to certain people in order to identify the direction of the story-telling. It's an old trick, but it works 99% of the time ;-)

Well, it's dinner time for me now. Been working on my house, so we're running late today. Have a nice evening.


Cheers

snapper


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:20 pm 
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You're in danger of losing my interest now Mike - Not the done thing to come onto a UK forum and tell us how to conduct business....... We like to name people when we speak of them because that's how we do things - Pseudonyms are convenient hiding places for scoundrels and a fall back to denial.

If a person has a position, a career or social standing that they feel could be prejudiced by their leisure activities then they are either in the wrong job or the wrong hobby. If a person can not stand by what they do - their actions carry little weight. Again shadowy figures.

If you're here Mike - you play by our rules..... I don't post on German forums because they won't let me. I also don't like the rules some of them set up so being polite I remain silent - I can still read and digest and form opinions though. So if you're going to conduct business in public where users. observers, press, media, law enforcement and others can access - I can't see a reason why clear identification of persons concerned shouldn't take place. For my part I shan't modify my behaviour on here as there is nothing wrong with it. You can choose to do as you wish.

The puddings were a bit sad but we had them for dessert instead.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:38 pm 
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Sorry to hear about your puddin's, but that's happened to me before.

No intention of telling you folks how to conduct business here. Sorry if it came over that way. Just clarifying why I wasn't going to answer that question, not so as you think I might be ignoring it. The fact is, though, you are effectively saying in your answer that people in public service should not re-enact in Germany.

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments in that matter and find it totally applicable in UK, I can fully understand the fears of those implicated in Germany, and politely request that you tolerate my stand on that matter. The alternative is just that I will ignore questions like that in the future. Now, if you had asked me by PM, I would have given you a straight answer. Maybe I will still do that here, but not until I have spoken to the gentleman in question.

I am actually fairly certain he will have no objections, but it is not my decision to make. On the German forums, I post only under my real name and have no love of pseudonyms, but I rather gathered that using your real name was not the done thing here, as I haven't seen much of it so far.

Please note that I am not here to start an agressive argument or even a slagging match, but I will not disguise or withhold my opinion on things just to please certain people. You may know the old Army saying: "Arguing with an Infantryman is like wrestling with a pig. Everyone gets covered in sh*t, and the pig loves it!"

Some things come across differently in writing than they would face-to-face. I am actually fairly certain that our views are not so very different, apart from certain details of how to handle the German situation. I am well aware of the strong points and failings of both myself and the other more prominent participants in discussions on the "German question", including those you have named previously. Some of them are definitely no friends of mine, and I have been surprised by some comments by people I had considered to be friends until this discussion came up, and I do not mean anybody you have yet named. My attempts to provide some neutral advice in this affair have already been grossly misrepresented here, as elsewhere, by people following solely their own aims.

On the German forum in which I actively participate (the one you call "Hoover's"), I have been opposing any attempts or calls to boycott the Fallingbostel event, and made a very clear statement that I and my family would definitely be attending, whatever the constellation. I also encouraged my group to attend, with some significant success amongst those who had initially withdrawn their registration in the face of the tumult caused amongst other forum participants by the announcement concerning the participation of SS re-enactors.

As for losing your interest - fine by me! If you wish to pursue this discussion further, I will also be happy to do so. My critical comments were not directed at you personally. My criticism of the, in my view, puerile and unnecessarily agressive argumentation in the various threads has been equally expressed here and in the German forum, albeit there mainly in the non-public area. I feel that the way in which the disussion was held and "hyped" has been the main cause of uncontent throughout, and has caused the main damage to the issue. I wholeheartedly agree with you that the main "Hype" came from certain Germans. Your "Hoover-Baiting" did, however, pour oil on the flames and prevented the hype from subsiding. Mind you, as I have already said to him, his permanent snapping at your hook probably made it very hard to desist. I'm not sure I would have acted any differently in your place, to be honest.

I'm probably setting myself up as a target for both sides here, so: target to your front, ten rounds rapid.......


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:56 pm 
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Hi at all,

i am just comming back from an very nice training weekend of my group here in germany, and the first i read, is the message from Kevin. Very bad situation for Kevin becouse all his work was for nothing and i now, how hard he was figthing for this event. And bad for us, because this should have been our mainevent in 2011 and most members of my group planed the holidays for this easter weekend.

But there are some good points too. I am glad to read, that at least in this forum the truth is spoken. Pulver-Kurt has in my eyes no effect to the german reenactmet scene, at least, becaus only one stupid little local newspaper wrote about his reenactmen activities. In the german news, this subjekt is forgotten for weeks, we have other subjects like egypt in the newspapers. Only in the german reenactment scene, some people keep on discussing and keep the story living.

But Paul is right when he ask´s what to do and where can we go now. First, the event on eastern is planed and it will happen for my group. We are looking for places to go and i am shure, we will find a place. Maybe not as big as it was planed by Kevin, maybe without public, maybe only for my group. But we will meet on this weekend and we will have our event! And i will tell you, why i am so shure about that.

This weekend we had a training for "Feldgendarmerie" and our "Stab". We had it in a town closed to Munich, less than 30 Kilometers from the City. We had it in the midlle of an smalltown. We got an permission from the officials without any problem! I was staying in a hotel close to the place we where acting and i walked every morning and eyery night in my uniform across the streets. A had my breakfast between the other guests and nobody made any bad comment about what we do. We where walking in the publik with our uniforms, with weapons and we had no bad responce from anyone. This was the thirt training like this. We did it in bavaria, we did it in Münsterland and we did it here in the north. Only little local events with not more than 25 People, but we will go on to do this kind of meetings all over germany. We will go on to be offensive to the publik.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:38 pm 
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Ohmhagen wrote:
Hi at all,

i am just comming back from an very nice training weekend of my group here in germany, and the first i read, is the message from Kevin. Very bad situation for Kevin becouse all his work was for nothing and i now, how hard he was figthing for this event. And bad for us, because this should have been our mainevent in 2011 and most members of my group planed the holidays for this easter weekend.

But there are some good points too. I am glad to read, that at least in this forum the truth is spoken. Pulver-Kurt has in my eyes no effect to the german reenactmet scene, at least, becaus only one stupid little local newspaper wrote about his reenactmen activities. In the german news, this subjekt is forgotten for weeks, we have other subjects like egypt in the newspapers. Only in the german reenactment scene, some people keep on discussing and keep the story living.

But Paul is right when he ask´s what to do and where can we go now. First, the event on eastern is planed and it will happen for my group. We are looking for places to go and i am shure, we will find a place. Maybe not as big as it was planed by Kevin, maybe without public, maybe only for my group. But we will meet on this weekend and we will have our event! And i will tell you, why i am so shure about that.

This weekend we had a training for "Feldgendarmerie" and our "Stab". We had it in a town closed to Munich, less than 30 Kilometers from the City. We had it in the midlle of an smalltown. We got an permission from the officials without any problem! I was staying in a hotel close to the place we where acting and i walked every morning and eyery night in my uniform across the streets. A had my breakfast between the other guests and nobody made any bad comment about what we do. We where walking in the publik with our uniforms, with weapons and we had no bad responce from anyone. This was the thirt training like this. We did it in bavaria, we did it in Münsterland and we did it here in the north. Only little local events with not more than 25 People, but we will go on to do this kind of meetings all over germany. We will go on to be offensive to the publik.

How refreshing to read - Thank you for this news - Something positive - People actually getting out and doing some re-enactment rather than talking about it. I think you have opened my eyes to something Frank - Maybe Pulver-Kurt IS just a sideshow........ Maybe your attitude of "it is a two day talk and a ten day wonder" is the way to be. I hope so.I will follow your activites with great interest - They seem to be making positive advances and could form the basis for real change. At least this evening ends with something upbeat to think about. Thank you again.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:04 am 
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Ohmhagen wrote:
Hi at all,

i am just comming back from an very nice training weekend of my group here in germany, and the first i read, is the message from Kevin. Very bad situation for Kevin becouse all his work was for nothing and i now, how hard he was figthing for this event. And bad for us, because this should have been our mainevent in 2011 and most members of my group planed the holidays for this easter weekend.

But there are some good points too. I am glad to read, that at least in this forum the truth is spoken. Pulver-Kurt has in my eyes no effect to the german reenactmet scene, at least, becaus only one stupid little local newspaper wrote about his reenactmen activities. In the german news, this subjekt is forgotten for weeks, we have other subjects like egypt in the newspapers. Only in the german reenactment scene, some people keep on discussing and keep the story living.

But Paul is right when he ask´s what to do and where can we go now. First, the event on eastern is planed and it will happen for my group. We are looking for places to go and i am shure, we will find a place. Maybe not as big as it was planed by Kevin, maybe without public, maybe only for my group. But we will meet on this weekend and we will have our event! And i will tell you, why i am so shure about that.

This weekend we had a training for "Feldgendarmerie" and our "Stab". We had it in a town closed to Munich, less than 30 Kilometers from the City. We had it in the midlle of an smalltown. We got an permission from the officials without any problem! I was staying in a hotel close to the place we where acting and i walked every morning and eyery night in my uniform across the streets. A had my breakfast between the other guests and nobody made any bad comment about what we do. We where walking in the publik with our uniforms, with weapons and we had no bad responce from anyone. This was the thirt training like this. We did it in bavaria, we did it in Münsterland and we did it here in the north. Only little local events with not more than 25 People, but we will go on to do this kind of meetings all over germany. We will go on to be offensive to the publik.


Glad,you find no difficulties about the Pulver thing...
We wish you the best along with your group,and hope you will have much events in your homeland.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:50 am 
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Ohmhagen, I am glad your event went well, I have been to several events organised by members of the
"Grossdeutschland" group and I have enjoyed all of them, it is really nice to see more events in Germany.

Cheers, Bill.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:21 am 
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Sorry to hear it has been cancelled. Was looking forward to attend in British kit.

Rob


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Hoffman Grink wrote:
So, where can they play now? Perhaps the UK?


They play for some years in The Netherlands, Flanders and Wallonia.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Salacious Crumb wrote:
Hoffman Grink wrote:
So, where can they play now? Perhaps the UK?


They play for some years in The Netherlands, Flanders and Wallonia.

And will these "playgrounds" (no wonder the German media calls it Kriegspielen) still be open to Germans? A source in Belgium tells me this may not be so.......

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