3 Cheers for Brit re-enactors.

[Mattias Sieger]

We have the same problems with the Americans in Scandinavia Apparently it's a general problem.....

[Darkattitude]

Sadly you all seem to be missing the point of these battles, they're not some super realistic recreation of an actual event but some bit of fun that's put on for the punters. People moaning about people sticking out of vehicles, would you rather they be all hatched in with no sight of people in their path. If reality is what you're after then the Gucci sniper would have been obliterated by the tanks before they even got into the village. Year after year I hear reenactors (Not all, but some) moaning about some unrealistic scenario and complaining about people not taking their hits, for God sake grow up. I know that most of my guys can't be arsed with these battles and we'd rather be walking around the stalls shopping but we're obliged to do it. Now don't get me wrong there is some God awful Kevlar coated Yanks out there but there's also the same wearing field grey. Anyone who feels strongly enough about how crap the battle is has a simple choice, don't do it, go shopping.....I would if I had the choice.

Can I just add that luckily for us we're only playing soldiers and not actually facing enemy fire unlike some of our Countrymen oversee's, so lets try and not take these battles too seriously lads.

[stefan]

Ok Darkattitude as you state the battles are a bit of fun or should I say fun to do , though we endeavour to make them as realistic as limitations will allow with scenarios and scripting and some sort of realistic movement of troops in the field


my observation was simply why is it that whenever I have been involved in these battles and it is over many years , it tends to be the US armour that has all the hatches open and a forest of heads poking out like some sort of sightseeing tour of the battle field ? in my opinion and I stress this is my opinion it looks a bit FARBY , if there are issues with control of the vehicle why not the commander and driver only with head out preferably driver closed down as well , for safety I can see this a a good compromise as battles have a designated area for vehicle movement which means those on foot stay well away from the armour


hear is an example of what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggIC0QBdDbc


at 27 seconds in you see German armour move with only the commander heads up and in control of the vehicle


at 1 min and 1;17 we see two peaces of US armour with the every head in a hatch scenario ,to me the first example looks more realistic but like I say this is my opinion and I might well be the only who thinks this way because obviously these these crews don't

[Darkattitude]

Hi Stefan,
I hear what you're saying mate but unless you've been inside one of these beasts you can't really appreciate how impossible it is to hear anything. Back in the day all these tanks would have working comms but most in the battle probably don't, the German tanks don't have to really travel any distance whereas the Allied Armour had to go through a narrow gate and go on the main road and then go through another gate before travelling down a narrow channel in the lines of Pyro's. The added problem being infantry on the ground, most of the Germans were dug in so didn't have this problem. I had to fire the 50 Cal from the M36 and it's a really daft firing position where the mount it on the back of the turret, the only way to fire it is from outside the turret which is suicidal in reality. My role was actually to sign off the rounds firing and only to sanction it when it was safe to do so, we have a procedure in the tank where everyman has a job, when that parts complete he shouts out, for example "Weapons Safe" or " Weapon Loaded" etc, once we're loaded and ready to fire they instruct me and I check that it's safe and then I shout "Fire". We really are lucky to have both the German and Allied Armour at these events but it only take one major accident to occur and we'd all have to pay the price. Can you imagine having to explain to the HSE that you ran over someone because you had poor visibility and you use the excuse that we had all the hatches closed because we thought it looked more realistic, you'd be crucified. Sadly this is all part of managing the risk, if you don't do it and something happens then you don't have a leg to stand on.

The next time your at Beltring or Victory come over and we'll let you have a sit in the tank so you can get a feel for things, it's an interesting experience but not as comfortable as you'd imagine.

[stefan]

Appreciate what you are saying but for very little cost you can install comms in these vehicles an old army clansman harness set up with head sets would mean the commander and driver would be able to communicate ,I must say I am surprised they don't already have this as minimum


Believe me I do understand what it is like to be inside an armoured vehicle with limited vision but if the commander is heads up he can see enough to make it safe for all around him , if the driver is not confident enough to drive with limited vision and directions from the commander then best he stays heads up, but as for the rest of the crew positions they would be at their station within the tank either as gun aimer loader or hull machine gunner during the battle and not doing meerkat impressions while rolling forward into enemy fire


Yes I know its not real and all that, but if you watch say a group like SBG crew their PAK they strive for a realistic portrayal with realistic drills and make it look good for the public, also when deploying their halftrack with infantry they stay tucked inside and debus from the rear doors as would have real soldiers under fire , not all standing bolt upright like a tour bus outing

I know its only make believe but I just wondered why it is that some can make an effort to make it more realistic and some just don't seam to give a hoot and think it looks good to do it in what in my opinion is unrealistic and FARBY

not having a go just curios ( by the way I am not in the SBG but just like to see someone make the effort and I think they do it justice)

all that said its still great to see the Allied armour on the field well done to all involved

[Pug42]

Before anyone else jumps in here I should point out that Stefan is the Lead Stug Driver in Sturmpanzer, qualified H category licence holder and with many years experience of tracked vehicle driving of all types in the Blues and Royals.

He is just too modest to point it out...

So I for one would therefore give some weight to his opinions!!

[Stigroadie]

I've played war on many sides, I've been the guy in the red jumper who you know will get killed first, I have helped organise and run public battles.
I have noticed there is a difference in the mind set of re-enactors of various nations just as much as there is between groups. It all adds to the variety of the re-enactor gene pool so to say but what is the lean for one is the fat for the other.
What counts for re-enactors does the same for vehicle owners. Sweeping generalisation coming up;
US vehicle owners like to fill their pride and joy to he max with all comers, get as many in, on or hanging off as you can. Jeeps, trucks, half tracks, tanks, no matter, fill em up. But don't muck the paint will dirty pyro...
German owners rather go for the essentials only, the correct crew, their group in the half track. Plenty of smoke and huge pyro please tends to be their ideal.
The Brits tend towards the circumspect, what ever it takes but don't give us orders, we have a CO. also, if we don't have to do any running....
Soviets, fatalistic as ever, we will all die for Mother Russia so what the hell, if we get to kill Germans we're in.

[Pug42]

Written for comic effect but nuggets of truth in there all the same Stig!

[geoffpara]

Must admit I recognised the groupings you had there Stig! Caused a jolly chuckle this end

[Emil]

Agree there Stig - you have neatly described the corporate attitude of certain groups. At least you are allowed to state your opinion without attracting threats. My first post which started this long thread, had an American re-enactor threatening to ban me from the arena. Dictatorial?

Whilst these are not intended to be realistic battles but fun, lets not forget that a family ticket for the public is very expensive, and they should expect at least a token stab at realism, otherwise it would be a blattfest with no dead at all, which would look unrealistic, whereas now we have a blattfest with the Germans all falling over.

Shopping, anyone?

[hanser]

Not to open up a new can of worms but isn`t the point of all this just lack of communication between Allied and Axis? With very loose senarios because of time at events? I personally have a dislike for public battles but thats my choice. Its something that has to be done to entertain. One of the biggest problems is over-manning the battle. Less is more and a damm sight safer. Waltham Abbey this year for an example. Sunday battle packed and a total cluster **** for firing too close and unrealistic. Monday a third to half less bods on the field and the battle was 200% better. Food for thought possibly?
Please stop pointing fingers at our American friends I have seen more British Teflon this year than ever before. I was in the W&P Brit battle and although the Brit Airbourne were fantastic the Brit Infantry were on a sunday stroll under German fire, very very disappointing. I can say that because I took some of our guests into the Battle and they were awful... so bad I personally apologised to Ian Pope of Just Ordinary Men who orgnised the battle.
If you want to do something about it then talk to each other and arrange what should go down in the battles, make it more scripted with smaller numbers so you have better control. Choose the groups carefully and have post battle meetings to iron out mistakes or remove individuals that don`t go to the script or are dangerous.
If you want proper realism use live rounds or go airsofting.

Rant over
Hanser