Interesting question - kneeling while captured

[dbloge]

I saw this on another forum and thought it was such an interesting topic, that I would bring it over.

The original post....

"I see quite a few reenactment photos where one side has captured some from the other side. In most of the photos the captured is kneeling in front of the captors. Am I wrong in saying this is a somewhat modern thing? Of all the original pictures I have viewed, unless they are under fire or resting, the captured and captors are standing. The captured are being searched standing up. I see this as a modern act, like the low carry of rifles, being used in reenactments and living histories. Am I wrong? This has bothered me for a long while."

What do you guys think?

DL

[Oberleutnant Ulrich]

I have never seen a picture of a German kneeling with their hands up, always standing, and then hands on the head, not up. When resting, then often laying down and trying to sleep as they look exhausted.

As for the rifles...too often I see reenactment pictures of "Germans" holding the rifle the wrong ways....look at the pictures from that time...right hand was used!

[Jaws]

Tough one to call this...

Most pics I have seen the prisoners are stood being searched or being marched off to the rear. The actual point of "capturing" an enemy may not have been well documented as it is one of the most dangerous & fluid situations a soldier will ever encounter. Face to face with your enemy, what will happen in the next few seconds? Those of you who have soldiered for real will know it's a bloody awful place to be. Would any soldier in this situation want a photographer getting in the way? Would any photographer put their life on the line to get this kind of picture? I will say few would and fewer did, hence the lack of pictures.

Anybody on here do brit or american? Was there anything in the training manuals regarding the correct procedure of capturing the enemy whilst assaulting an enemy position during WWII?

Regards,

Gary.

[berlin1945]

As for the rifles...too often I see reenactment pictures of "Germans" holding the rifle the wrong ways....look at the pictures from that time...right hand was used!

In the main the right hand was used , but I have seen photos with soldiers using left hand to fire rifles and other weapons , same as with Brits as well. although the Mp40 / Mp38 would have awkward to fire this way being cocked left handed.

[Oberleutnant Ulrich]

Could have been foreign troops...imagine what the Feldwebel would do if he found Fritz shooting left handed!

But I meant more by carrying, too often I see that hollywood rifle pose look in the pictures that one doesn't really see in the pictures.

Another one I've seen often in reenacting videos is the US hand signals...

but back to the surrendering:

Speaking to a German veteran, a Leutnant Hess who served on the eastern front then was captured by the americans while in Germany, said that they stood up and tried to make themselves as visible as possible when giving up as when not showing your complete self made the US a bit edgy and were more prone to shooting then. Main rules: Do not pop out or shout out or in any way startle the yanks, make sure you come out in a clear open place from a distance with hands high up or on your head, make sure the tunic is either off or completely buttoned up so it doesn't look like one can grab quickly at a hidden pistol, no gear (if anything, drop it upon sight then ask for a US to bring it up so they can inspect it on their own but with you around so they don't think it's a bomb) and try not to look either too cool or too scared. But most importantly of all....do what the other tells you to do! He said though that it wasn't nearly as bad with the Brits as he witnessed them capturing Germans and he had to act as a translator as he spoke English, French and Russian on top of his German.

[RKrieger]

You do see photos of captured soldiers sitting in groups under guard, one would presume this is after they have been searched.

Kneeling, I would say is a pretty short term position.. Guy surrenders ... captors tell them to kneel, initial search is done.. he is stood up.. detailed search is completed .. then marched off to a collection point.. where they would be sitting around in groups.. often smoking the captor's cigarettes...

[dbloge]

Ulrich, interesting story, especially about the open tunics.

Rkrieger, I can see the point of kneeling, but did it happen in WWII? I have not seen any pics or film of it? I can see the point of it being short term, it makes sense to us, but did it actually happen back then?


DL

[Bill Medland]

From a personal point I would not like to be kneeling whilst surrendering, it allows for a boot in the teeth from an enemy boot.
I would wish to be standing, if possible making myself look bigger to the one taking me prisoner. Standing, one can fend off any
possible blows better and "roll" with a hit to the face..........kneeling I would be at his mercy, perhaps the soldiers of WW2 (or any war)
would agree with this? (We sometimes kneel in reenactment because we know there will be no blows due to revenge).

Cheers, Bill.

[Axel Dorsch]

Out of the countless period photographs, I cannot recall aby of prisoners kneeling, even in an execution setting. Captured prisoners are always on their feet or sitting normal with their legs crossed.

Now, in regards to the left handed shooting.

I know that in the interest of uniformity in formation and for training purposes, soldiers were taught to shoot right handed. However, I am unfamiliar of any regulation stating shooters MUST shoot right handed in combat. Can someone point me to this regulation as I have seen a few (very few) pictures of left handed shooters, usually with pistols.

Was this maybe different for the Waffen SS?

I am mostly curious because a member of our unit shoots left and it has never been an issue but I am very curious is there is an official regulation regarding this.

At least I know he is in good company with Papa Hausser!

[Sean]

You dont 'have' to be left handed to shoot with the other shoulder.

I'm naturally right handed, yet I eat like a leftie - fork in the right hand, knife in the left. I used to play hockey like a leftie as well, why? Because it felt natural - on the other hand, put a pen in in my left hand and it looks like a 5 year old scribbling! I've even shot left handed, and to be fair I find it alot more comfortable!

[Alex]

well to be honest the average allied re-enactor wants nothing more than a surrendering german pleading for mercy so he can put it in his family album.

I'd vote just run off back to your comrades

[peterwulfhund]

I'd say in Europe WW2 prob never, though it's the sort of thing the Japs may have gone in for!

[Tanaka]

I'd say in Europe WW2 prob never, though it's the sort of thing the Japs may have gone in for!

Any particular reason for that?

A prisoner on his knees is a prisoner under control, a prisoner on his knees cannot kick up in the balls and run off. There are plenty of photos of Japanese soldiers with prisoners on their knees, but then don't forget the people they are holding prisoner are usually men bigger and stronger than themselves, its common sense in that situation to put your prisoner at a dissadvantage so that you have the upper hand.

For the lack of photos in europe showing it i would say how many photos do you see of the first few minutes of prisoners being taken, at this point most soldiers have more pressing things on their minds than taking snap shots

[peterwulfhund]

You answer your own question Takana San, the only WW2 kneeling prisoner pics seem to be in Japanese sphere of things, hence my thoughts

[Oberleutnant Ulrich]

Germans are too proud to kneel