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 Post subject: stg44 used in Normandy?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:34 pm 
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I am quite intrigued to know
Graphic evidences are very scarce
Probably they are not even mp44's but some "trial issue" mp43's

German squad in Normandy, the guy on the center is carrying one
Image
Rommel visiting the Atlantic Wall, look at the soldier on the left
Image

Any thoughts?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:18 am 
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This is my theory so far
Very limited numbers in renowned waffen SS divisions
Some with fallschirmjagers serving in Cotentin area
Some trial mp43's and MKb.42's in heer service (though most may have gone to the Eastern Front and Italy)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:10 pm 
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I would say a bit more than "trial" issue. The 7.92 kurz ammo would have to be readily available, the pic's look like going into combat.

MP43's started to be issued late 43 (I think), I agree first units to receive probably "elite" units. These new rifles worked well in the russian winter temperatures and were a good counter against the ppsh, so I will say most went east before they were needed in the west. Once the allies had landed, there was a need to ship them west.

You need to find more pics that are dated, that will help answer your questions. Anyone else know if the pics posted here are pre or post d-day?

Regards,

Gary.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:42 pm 
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True, they would have to be issued with enough ammo to frontline troops rather than rearguard reserves where they are not needed

The first pic is post D-day (but how much?), they are supposedly men from 2.Panzer division in Normandy, and they are heading to combat. A clue is that the trigger of the panzerfaust is the version previous to september 1944, and it looks summer

The second pic is clearly pre D-day as Rommel appears visiting the Atlantic Wall. However, it may not be in Normandy. It is just a field inspection, so not in combat

Kar98's, mp40's, mg42's, and even G43's are much more common to see in Normandy photos

Unfortunatelly the stg44's are hard to find

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Last edited by Schuller on Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:00 pm 
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These pics are different point of views of the first one and they are clearly captioned France 1944

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... risten.jpg

The same column?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... risten.jpg

The same guys? Look at the far bottom left, good shot of it
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... risten.jpg

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Jaws wrote:
MP43's started to be issued late 43 (I think), I agree first units to receive probably "elite" units.

The book THE MKB42, MP43, MP44 AND THE STURMGEWEHR 44 (containing lots of info and propaganda photos from this weapon) shows a very large amount of MP44's in use with the Skijäger division. Next to that you see them in all kinds of units, both Heer and Waffen SS. I wouldn't say that they mostly got to the SS divisions as it is a myth that they got the best and newest equipment first. The first photos I know that show them in use with the Waffen SS on the western front are from the battle of the bulge. Though that doesn't say all, not always was a Kriegsberichter available to make a shot of it, so has anyone more info about this?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:50 pm 
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rednas, was the skijäger division deployed in the front line when the photo was taken? If yes, east or west? Also, when I wrote "elite" I was meaning units like SS, Fallschirm, pzgrenadiers. I should have made myself clearer.

Regards,

Gary.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:51 pm 
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I understand these were incorrectly captioned as 2 Panzer, they are in fact of an infantry division (80/81/82/83/84/85?) from recollection. I also believe the chap in the first photo to be carrying a Mp43.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:05 pm 
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Jaws wrote:
rednas, was the skijäger division deployed in the front line when the photo was taken? If yes, east or west? Also, when I wrote "elite" I was meaning units like SS, Fallschirm, pzgrenadiers. I should have made myself clearer.

Regards,

Gary.

The Skijäger were on the Eastern front, not one but many photos from the frontline.

Also, the units who recieved the most Stg44's were Volksgrenadier divisions, not really the top-notch elite ;) Although that was later in the war, not normandy '44 where we are discussing about. But do you have any evidence that the SS/FJ/Pzgren recieved more Stg's than the Heer or infantry units?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:33 pm 
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You make sense rednas, there was no time to take existing weapons from a frontline unit and upgrade to more modern weapons. The Volksgrenadier divisions were raised late summer of 44? They would need weapons so since the MP43/44 was in production they would have got it. After the western german forces regrouped late summer/autumn '44 and were refitted, that's the time to issue the new kit.

I have no evidence, only one or two pics in a few books, you probably have the same books as me. :wink: Nothing conclusive.

Just a thought, some divisions were resting/refitting in normandy when the allies invaded. (352nd for example) I now wonder if they would have begun receiving the new weapons?

Regards,

Gary.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:31 am 
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From my knowledge of 352 ID, there was no widespread issue of MP43/44's, if they possessed them in Normandy, they would have been small in number.

As Rednas said, 352VGD assault companies received them in good quantities for their Ardennes objectives.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Quote:
Also, the units who recieved the most Stg44's were Volksgrenadier divisions, not really the top-notch elite ;) Although that was later in the war, not normandy '44 where we are discussing about

October 1944 if I remember right

This stg44 was found west of the town Schmidt, in the Hurtgen forest, and there were Volksgrenadier divisions there
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u60/ ... 000808.jpg

Quote:
But do you have any evidence that the SS/FJ/Pzgren recieved more Stg's than the Heer or infantry units?

Probably we will never know who received more stg's, we know at least they were issued to recently made divisions (made with the remains of other divisions) and to replacement (ersatz) units of a few already existing divisions

I think there was an allied report of fallschirmjagers using stg44's near Cherbourg

For the waffen-SS I know this pic of SS men equiped with stg44 ammo pouches (supposedly in Normandy), hard to know the true date
http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum ... mandia.jpg

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:58 am 
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The first photo showing the Heer soldier with a MP43/44 is one of a serie made by a Kriegsberichter named Theobald, this are men of either the I. or II. Battalion, Grenadier-Regiment 1052 from the 84. Infanterie-Division, marching into Ger in Normandië.
Taken on 2 or 3 august 1944 just prior Operation "Lüttich". The actuel sequence shows the 84. Infanterie-Division moving in the area to relieve the 116. Panzer-Division.

(source is "Rückmarsch !" by Jean Paul Pallud)

Jan


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:58 am 
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trying to find that picture of FJ, with a MK42b


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Due make up of a Volksgrenadier division they were ( on Paper ) Issued with more automatic weapons to make up for the lack of the 3rd Battalion .
I have a Veterans account of members from HG div having stg44s during Nordwind

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