Peiper, guilty or not guilty!

[Stuart21]

No one can tell for sure unless they were there. I think, like it has been said, he was mainly accused of being part of the 'baddies' for want of better terms. As for Malmedy (I think I have the right one in mind) then how do we know the size of the German forces? I mean what would you do..out-numbered by your prisoners, they rush you. More of them than of you right? Maybe it was an act of self defence but then look at the other evidence.

I don't think we'll be able to tell for sure. From what i've read of the guy he seemed like an good enough chap..a good leader anyway.

[Stigroadie]

they were Patriots but not Nazi's.

I'm not sure that is true. They like so many were all dead keen when it was going well and glad to bask in the limelight of the leader, remember what Rommel did for a job in the army pre war?
To say they were not nazis is stretching credibility, they may not have been NSDAP party members but they supported and worked hard for the regime. They were nazis.

[rednas]

Hi Ropes
Good point, in my opinion and from information ive read i seriously doubt that
Peiper was political at all, thats not saying that he wasn't a patriot, but we had
a few of those on our own side

Don't forget Peiper joined the SS in 1935 and had plenty of time and opportunity to
join the Nazi party, even getting a "low-number".

I think the excuse he gave Himmler was just that, an excuse, the same could be said
about Rommel or Stauffenberg even, they were Patriots but not Nazi's.

Regards Peiper.

Peiper joined the party in December 1937 and was a member from March 1938. He received the NSDAP number 5508134 (you can find this in the documents from the Bundesarchiv). He also never made it a secret that he was a national socialist.

[Peiper]

Peiper joined the party in December 1937 and was a member from March 1938. He received the NSDAP number 5508134 (you can find this in the documents from the Bundesarchiv). He also never made it a secret that he was a national socialist.

Thanks for that Rednas
This news to me, have you a link to this so i can get access??
I was going by the book "Jochen Peiper" by Charles Whiting also
the semi biography "Peiper" by Leo Kessler where the "Himmler"
story was mentioned!

Regards "Peiper"

[rednas]

[Mikkel]

[..]also the semi biography "Peiper" by Leo Kessler where the "Himmler" story was mentioned!

Regards "Peiper"

Seriously?? Leo Kessler is pulp fiction in the vein of Sven Hassel. It's rumored it's the very same author. Or possibly the same ghost writer. The style is incredibly alike.

[Peiper]

Thanks Rednas
So we can conclude that Peiper was an NSDAP member, maybe the conversation with Himmler
took place prior to this, it does seem strange that i haven't seen this mentioned anywhere
else???

Anyway getting back to the original topic, party member or not i still think he was not guilty
for events that happened at Malmedy (actually Baugnez to be exact, Malmedy was where
some survivors turned up and the incident was first reported)
Now we are getting somewhere gents!

Regards "Peiper"

[Hoffman Grink]

This "debate" is, I feel seriously flawed and somewhat skewed.
The opener is, by his own admission and his subsequent writings biased on the subject. He then writes inaccuracies which are quickly corrected. I am becoming uncomfortable reading this thread because I see increasingly an apologist theme and possibly some other agenda. If I am wrong I apologise up front but believe me - as a long timer it's making uncomfortable reading.

Joachim Peiper was a Nazi - He was a member of the NSDAP - I did not say directly that he was in my first post but I made it plain that he was. Like kamerad Rednas I have read and understood and have facts at my disposal. Kamerad Peiper sought to distance the real Peiper from the Nazi party - I ask why? does it make it any easier to try to vindicate Jochen?

There are several themes emerging - The original question is "Was Jochen Peiper Guilty of War Crimes" Now we are looking at "Were the Allies Wrong?" along with "Did the Allies Torture SS Men?" and a host of other questions which seek to somehow lessen the gravity of what German and German Nazi troops did. I, like many others who use this forum, know and have spoken with German veteraner, some of whom have openly discussed their Nazi past. Some who now see a different picture and some who remain steadfastly National Socialist in their outlook and beliefs. They are old men now so pose no threat to the New World Order so don't worry folks!!!!!!!! I UNDERSTAND "DER NAZIZEIT" and I know how controversial it is to try to justify anything that it stood for. Even if it was just making the trains run on time. I think I said as much as I want to in my first post. We can admire certain aspects of men from another era. We must NEVER attempt to divorce that from the unsavoury or immoral or even criminal aspects that they were also involved in. On all sides bad men commited evil acts. Victory makes some disappear. Unfortunately (or not) the losers have all their shameful acts recorded and paraded as part of their punishment.

To stick to the topic makes this a perfect poll option. Give people the options - Yes, No and Undecided..... this could save a lot of pointless argument and maybe embarrasment.

In later years Peiper retired to France - Where he was undoubtedly murdered. Now THAT would be a thread for discussion. Why were Peiper's murdered never caught? HE was a convicted war criminal - rightly or wrongly - but he served his time, paid the required penalty and was released to start again. What about the cowards who attacked him that night? And what about the auithorities who ignored the crime? But what will debating this ever change? Peiper fought a war, was made an example of for a dreadful faux pas and paid for that. He ended his days with a clean slate (after all - can criminals legally own guns in France?) and died as he probably would have wanted to. With a gun in his hand fighting an enemy. I hope God received his soul and he found redemption. What more could he ask for? I am sure a far higher authority than we lofty arseholes has judged him and not found him wanting. Don't you?

[Peiper]

Thanks for your comments Herr Grink

As for any other hidden agenda i assure you there is not.
Basicaly iam trying to get a full picture of this man the world has
condemned more often than not without getting the full picture
or doing any research into the facts.

Iam intrested in the man but purely from a research point of view
and am not biased in the slightest as can be seen from my previous post
to kamerad Rednas. As for writing "inaccuracies", iam only going from the
information i have at my disposal whether it be right or wrong so any further
information which people bring to this discussion if proved correct will be
accepted as such, hence an "unbiased" discussion.

You are entitled to your opinions as iam myelf, iam sorry you don't think
this thread "comfortable reading" but judging from the responses there are
people genuinely intrested in this topic and i do not wish it to be locked
as i think other people are as i said intrested.

As for "Traves" that will be mentioned in due course, perhaps i should have
called the post "Peoples opinions on Peiper" instead rather than the present title
because hopefully we will be discussing all aspects of Peiper's career not just
the "Malmedy incident".

As for mentioning The Americans involvement such as "torture" etc, this i feel
has to be mentioned for a balanced argument, especially for readers unsure of this
subject, no matter how unsavoury it is, the end of the day these things happened
like it or not. Hopefully this thread will continue in a friendly and comradely fashion
with no "buns being thrown" and hopefully not locked!

Regards "Peiper"

[Crazy Feldgendarme]

Well sad Paul i agree in the main.
Adding my own comments here whilst i have enjoyed reading this thread and it has in the main been friendly it has as PD said gone of the topic occasionally please keep it to replies to the origional posters point i.e we are not talking about possible allied war crimes here we are talking about Peiper. I do understand some may find it difficult to seperate as indeed i do HOWEVER i must say any one that takes a pulp fiction writers ramblings as facts (sorry Peiper not meant as a dig) is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Finally i have to agree with Paul a straight poll would be the best gauge of opinion on this thread.

Cheers now
Dave

[Peiper]

Well sad Paul i agree in the main.
Adding my own comments here whilst i have enjoyed reading this thread and it has in the main been friendly it has as PD said gone of the topic occasionally please keep it to replies to the origional posters point i.e we are not talking about possible allied war crimes here we are talking about Peiper. I do understand some may find it difficult to seperate as indeed i do HOWEVER i must say any one that takes a pulp fiction writers ramblings as facts (sorry Peiper not meant as a dig) is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Finally i have to agree with Paul a straight poll would be the best gauge of opinion on this thread.
Cheers now
Dave

Thanks Dave for your views
As i say, the "kessler" book is only one i have read, which was a "semi biography" book, as
iam trying to collect all i can on the subject, others i have read include:

SS Peiper by Leo Kessler
SS Peiper by Charles Whiting
The Devils Adjutant by Micheal Reynolds
Massacre at Malmedy by Charles Whiting
Battle of the Bulge by Nigel de Lee

Among other books which mention Peiper but are not strictly about him and various articles
i have read on the internet!.
I did think about a poll but am intrested in any information people have on the subject
Thanks everyone for their input in this thread so far.
Cheers "Peiper!

[Peiper]

I did write a long and intresting post about the Traves murder but the "post had expired"
and all information has disapeared, i will have to try again when i have got more time
Sorry gents
Peiper.

[Franz repper]

I am going to lock this topic as
a) we are on thin ice on this one
b) I am away so cant watch this one so much
c) I would of thought that MR Peiper would of leart from the first post being lock this was a no go!!!