True effectiveness of SS units?

[SS-Schutze Schuller]

Many reenactors choose to portray SS units as they were seen as an 'elite' unit. What i wanted to discuss was whether their actual battlefield quality was substantially higher than Heer or Luftwaffe units. For example had Army Panzergrenadier and infantry divisions been the only ones sent to Kharkov, would the initial success have been substantially less? Or if there were no SS at arnhem, Would the allies have succeeded? For all their propaganda value, was a Waffen ss unit greatly more effective than a standard army unit?

Did the Waffen SS really play a HUGE role in turning the tide of battles of the second world war? Or has their battlefield quality been exaggerated?

[Chorlitz|12.SS|]

The simple answer..YES. At the beginning of the war The Heer were better equipped and trained. As there was a cap on how many troops Germany could have the quality of soldiering went up dramatically. But as time went on and people were drafted to the Heer the SS got the cream of the crop and the SS training and indoctrination made them elite as it had been drummed into them that they were the best and were loyal to Hitler (Due to there training). As time went on The Heer got bigger But due to One man (Adolf) The Heer's commanders were not really free to so as they please (Probably down to some of them trying to kill him). So when Hitler wants to make crazy decisions the Generals are reluctant to go against him as it could mean a 7.92 round going through his chest. And you have to remember a lot of these men were called up on there 18th (well) and then told to report to a police station, Now they belong to the army(so these guys did not volunteer to do it. And a percentage were not even Nazis. So if your forced to fight for a cause you do not believe in your not going to fight as hard as someone who does.

Bit hard to explain but Im sure lots of guys on here will be please to expand on my conclusion.

[Mikkel]

I would say rather the opposite. Imagine if the professional army had gotten all the rescources that were spent on the SS.
My thesis is that the SS were less rescource effecient than the army, for many reasons but especially because of the political ideology. The leadership were often made up of men with no comprehensive military training.
I'd say they had been put to better use as part of the army.

[Chorlitz|12.SS|]

I do not want an argument or make foes but the Heer did not have the resources that the SS had which is true but surly that gave the SS an extra edge and made them the fighting force that the was.


The way to settle the argument would be to ask the vets and I can guarantee that for first hand experience that they will say the SS were some of the finest FIGHTING men (Im not talking about what war crimes they did) that the Allied armies went against.

But everyman has he's own opinion.

[Mikkel]

You must not forget that the army numbered more than 10 million men, where the ss at it's so-called peak had less than one million, and basicly haf of those were substandard troops, force recruited youngsters and old men.
Only the few premier divisions would attain the status of 'elite'.

How would asking a veteran provide the definite answer ? A single soldier does not see the bigger picture of warfare. Nor did he go up against all the different troops of the enemy.

[SS-Schutze Schuller]

Would it be fair to say that it came down to resource distribution? Certain army units that were as well equipped as SS units fared as well as or arguably better in combat (grossdeutschland etc)

[ssparatrooper]

well i would just think yourself lucky that you never had to come up against them!

[SS-Schutze Schuller]

To be honest, I think myself lucky not to have to come up against anyone trying to kill me!

[Chorlitz|12.SS|]

It seems that the Germans had these great ideas and technology but in the end it seems nothing they made could make a big difference as they was never made in great numbers.

I can understand where you are coming from we can't change history. Just what I think from what I know. I just think that the over all quality of the ss was better than the heer in later war.

[Peiper]

Hi chaps
Intresting thread !
Basicaly in the beginning, the Wehrmacht scoffed at the SS and called them "Ashphalt-Soldiers"
The Wehrmacht High command's view changed in Russia when even though the SS skills
were in the early days no better than the Wehrmacht career soldiers/regulars, it was their
resolve not to retreat and to fight to the last man which made them different, where as the
Wehrmacht would have retreated in some impossible cases, the SS stayed put!

Eventually the SS, especially, the Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf were known as the
"Fuhrer's Fire Brigade" due to the fact that they were sent from place to place and different
sections of the front where support was needed most, although this type of fighting resulted
in these "SS Premier Divisions" being recalled on a number of occasions to be refitted,
rearmed and remanned, more often than not, on the point of being annhilated as losses were
that great, more than three or four times as many as the Wehrmacht Divisions/Units

Regards Peiper.

[rednas]

My favorite subject...

People always tend to thing that the Waffen SS recieved better equipment, got more tanks, the newest weapons, had a much better killrate than the Heer and such. This is more the result of the German and American propaganda, than thanks to the results of the Waffen SS.
In the German propaganda the Waffen SS was always respresented as the best fighting force in the German ww2 media. Even successes made by the Wehrmacht were sometimes attributed to the Waffen SS. It is true that the forces you see in the media were one of the best fightingforces of the German army, but this is exactly what they did, only show those who did the trick well. Though the Waffen SS was more than only the LAH, Das Reich Totenkopf and HJ; don't forget that the Waffen SS was made out of 38 divisions, consisting of mostly regular but also many terribly bad quality divisions. This was exact the same with the Heer, which also had his exelent panzer divisions, some of them also called and used as a 'Fire Brigade'. Most people also overlook that while the Waffen SS was only on the frontline, the Heer had to be on the frontline and next to that had to occupate all trough Europe. So for that reason you should have to compare the SS combat/frontline units with those from the Heer and when you do that, they results are pretty much the same.

Before and in the early days of ww2 the SS-VT (waffen SS) got his own trainingprogram with its own tactics and the results were that the SS-VT had much more casualties than the Heer. With this in mind, they changed to the tactics and trainingprogram of the regular army, a smart move. The main difference was that the Waffen SS was also had political lessons, and from what I've heared and read that was the most hated part of their training.

Next to this it also is a myth that the Waffen SS was completely voluntary. Throughout the whole war you can find stories of people who had been forced into it in all kinds of ways, often by misleading adverticements. From 1944 and onwards it even was normal for whole units of Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe personal to be transfered in the Waffen SS. A part of "the most elite der elite", KG Peiper, was made out of second class personal, transered from the Wehrmacht.

Another thing that played its part was the American propaganda.During and after the war everybody had to know that the Americans fought against the most fearfull and elite divisions the Germans had, while the truth was that they were mostly fighting against old men and young boys. This is just like every tank a American had to face was a Tigertank.

The Waffen SS as the most effective and best elite fightingforce of the German army is a myth that will never disapear, it is the result- and one of the best examples of propaganda.

[SS-Schutze Schuller]

My favorite subject...

People always tend to thing that the Waffen SS recieved better equipment, got more tanks, the newest weapons, had a much better killrate than the Heer and such. This is more the result of the German and American propaganda, than thanks to the results of the Waffen SS.
In the German propaganda the Waffen SS was always respresented as the best fighting force in the German ww2 media. Even successes made by the Wehrmacht were sometimes attributed to the Waffen SS. It is true that the forces you see in the media were one of the best fightingforces of the German army, but this is exactly what they did, only show those who did the trick well. Though the Waffen SS was more than only the LAH, Das Reich Totenkopf and HJ; don't forget that the Waffen SS was made out of 38 divisions, consisting of mostly regular but also many terribly bad quality divisions. This was exact the same with the Heer, which also had his exelent panzer divisions, some of them also called and used as a 'Fire Brigade'. Most people also overlook that while the Waffen SS was only on the frontline, the Heer had to be on the frontline and next to that had to occupate all trough Europe. So for that reason you should have to compare the SS combat/frontline units with those from the Heer and when you do that, they results are pretty much the same.

Before and in the early days of ww2 the SS-VT (waffen SS) got his own trainingprogram with its own tactics and the results were that the SS-VT had much more casualties than the Heer. With this in mind, they changed to the tactics and trainingprogram of the regular army, a smart move. The main difference was that the Waffen SS was also had political lessons, and from what I've heared and read that was the most hated part of their training.

Next to this it also is a myth that the Waffen SS was completely voluntary. Throughout the whole war you can find stories of people who had been forced into it in all kinds of ways, often by misleading adverticements. From 1944 and onwards it even was normal for whole units of Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe personal to be transfered in the Waffen SS. A part of "the most elite der elite", KG Peiper, was made out of second class personal, transered from the Wehrmacht.

Another thing that played its part was the American propaganda.During and after the war everybody had to know that the Americans fought against the most fearfull and elite divisions the Germans had, while the truth was that they were mostly fighting against old men and young boys. This is just like every tank a American had to face was a Tigertank.

The Waffen SS as the most effective and best elite fightingforce of the German army is a myth that will never disapear, it is the result- and one of the best examples of propaganda.

Wow, good post. It makes me wonder why they are such a popular impression choice when they made up a far smaller part of germany's armed forces. I had just assumed it was because people had wanted to portray an 'elite' unit but if what you say is true then this is not so....

Forgive me if this is a well-worn question but why ARE the ss so popular to reenact if their battlefield effectiveness was not substantially better? I reenact ss becuase the unit here in new zealand is the most well organised, would personally rather portray a Heer soldier, if I had the option.

[Peiper]

Hi chaps
Intresting thread !
Basicaly in the beginning, the Wehrmacht scoffed at the SS and called them "Ashphalt-Soldiers"
The Wehrmacht High command's view changed in Russia when even though the SS skills
were in the early days no better than the Wehrmacht career soldiers/regulars, it was their
resolve not to retreat and to fight to the last man which made them different, where as the
Wehrmacht would have retreated in some impossible cases, the SS stayed put!
Regards Peiper.

Hi gents

If you re-read my earlier post you will notice i said that more often than not that
"the SS stayed put" this means they did not retreat, unlike the Wehrmacht, so in
my eyes this makes them better soldiers in my opinion and not just the LAH, Das Reich
or Totenkopf Divisons either.

If you did some research you will see that a lot of other SS Divisions did the same, these
include "Wiking" "Nord" "Prinz Eugen" "Florian Geyer "Hohenstaufen" "Gotz von Berlichingen"
to name a few.

This was not due to the fact they had better equipment either, as for weapons, earlier on
were issued "out of date" or WW1 stocks this was due to the fact the Wehrmacht High
command held back their own stocks because they did not want the Waffen SS and were
obstructive in their formation, in the end the SS formned their own manufacturing plants,
even the "Camo" smock was of SS construction and was patented so the Wehrmacht couldn't
use the idea.

Regards Peiper.

[ssparatrooper]

It has nothing to do with the original units, it boils down to saving private ryan and band of bummers that is why there are more WSS units than there ever were, add this to the availability of cheap uniforms and there is your answer!

The original units were elite (a word that is used far too much by people who have no idea of what it means) and have gone down in history as such.

[Mikkel]

The huge SS reenactment group used in SVP, existed long before that movie.
If you were right, all the current ss units have been formed post '98.
besides, I don't recall more than a few ss soldiers in BoB (apart from the polish "volunteers" they gun down in one episode)?