True effectiveness of SS units?

[Ruimteaapje]

you seem to say their is no difference between the LAH and some late war Volksgrenadier unit

If you're trying to change my mind about leaving this forum you'd better not give such ridiculous twists to what I actually wrote...

Was the Waffen-SS an elite? NO. Did the Waffen-SS have elite units? YES. The Waffen-SS contained too many second and third rate units. The Waffen-SS did have some elite divisions. Roughly the Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf and Wiking. Out of 38 divisions that’s not enough to call the Waffen-SS as a whole an elite. The Heer had it’s elite as well: the prime Panzer-Divisions (1., 2., 3., 4., 6., 9., etc.), Grossdeutschland, Panzer-Lehr and off course some excellent infantry divisions. And obviously these elite divisions suffered from the same problems as the Waffen-SS elite divisions during the war.

Now, from what I wrote, what makes you twist my words into something I never claimed? It is no use, you'll simply keep trying to perpetuate the myths and you knowingly misinterpreted my opinion. Was the Leibstandarte an elite Waffen-SS unit: YES. Was a late war Volksgrenadier-Division an elite Heeres unit: NO. Would I suggest there was no difference between them? NO, so don't be ridiculous. This was my last reply

[stefan]

Thank you Ruimteaapje for staying with this topic and it is not my intension to twist what you say believe me


its just you avoided addressing the points that I raised about use of camo and relations between officers and

other ranks that were starkly different to those practiced in the Heer I though you might be of a different view



as you say not all SS units were elite but you acknowledge that some were and as the original post was about the

true effectiveness of SS units and why do so many reenactors portray SS units I think the answer is that the units

reenactors portray were the elite ones as you have already acknowledged ,and not the second rate ones



as I have already stated I personally don't know of anyone who would disagree that there is a world of difference between

the LAH and 22nd SS Cav Div Maria Theresa ,one I would call run of the mill the other elite



I suppose I responded to you SS groupies comment at bit to strongly implying I thought that many reenactors didn't

already know these differences as the list of events and explanations you so concisely put in you first post show



I merely tried to point out that there were differences within the way the SS did things in house so to speak

that did differ from the Heer ,Otto Carius's observations a case in point



so in a nut shell there is such a thing as elite SS units and they did do things in a different way to their army

comrades in house that is not at strategic levels



if you are at Beltring next week I would be pleased to buy you a drink and discuss further I dont want

you to think I am just some argumental type PM me if you are



and sorry for any misunderstandings

[Ropes]

Elite? – Was the Waffen-SS an elite? NO. Did the Waffen-SS have elite units? YES. The Waffen-SS contained too many second and third rate units. The Waffen-SS did have some elite divisions. Roughly the Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf and Wiking. Out of 38 divisions that’s not enough to call the Waffen-SS as a whole an elite. The Heer had it’s elite as well: the prime Panzer-Divisions (1., 2., 3., 4., 6., 9., etc.), Grossdeutschland, Panzer-Lehr and off course some excellent infantry divisions. And obviously these elite divisions suffered from the same problems as the Waffen-SS elite divisions during the war.

I'm pretty much on agreement with this. Looking at individual Divisions and there combat records Should determine if they were elite. makes more sense than classing the SS as a whole.

[Peiper]

Elite? – Was the Waffen-SS an elite? NO. Did the Waffen-SS have elite units? YES. The Waffen-SS contained too many second and third rate units. The Waffen-SS did have some elite divisions. Roughly the Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf and Wiking. Out of 38 divisions that’s not enough to call the Waffen-SS as a whole an elite. The Heer had it’s elite as well: the prime Panzer-Divisions (1., 2., 3., 4., 6., 9., etc.), Grossdeutschland, Panzer-Lehr and off course some excellent infantry divisions. And obviously these elite divisions suffered from the same problems as the Waffen-SS elite divisions during the war.

I'm pretty much on agreement with this. Looking at individual Divisions and there combat records Should determine if they were elite. makes more sense than classing the SS as a whole.

Thanks Ropes

That's more or less what i had said in an earlier post, of course not all SS units were classed as "elite" if i can use such a
word, infact in my opinion no Unit was elite, at the end of the day some were just better soldiers than others and what
sets SOME SS Units apart from others is their "mind-set" which made them basically fight to the last man with their backs
to the wall, your history books will tell you that.

There were of course good fighting units in the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe such as the Gebirgsjager, Gross Deutchland and
Fallschirmjager to name a few, but the point i think people are trying to make but unfortunately is being misconstrued and
cutting through all the hype/bullshit, like it or not there were CERTAIN SS Regiments/Units which had better fighting
men/soldiers than the average Wehrmacht Units. (end of disscussion)

As for leaving the forum Ruimteaapje, that is you perrogative and is entirely your decision, it is sad if you did just because
other people have different opinions to yourself, basically that is what this forum is about, people have their own say/opinions
whether right or wrong and whether others agree or not, this is freedom of speech, and it is wrong to force opinions on
others even if you think you are right!

You can advise and say "i don't think this is right" etc but not force, in my opinion this is not right, and also the "aggressive"
manner is not on either when people don't agree with your opinions, we have enough "enemies" against the reenacting
world as it is without falling out with each other!
Anyway i hope you stay with the forum, and good luck with your future posts/research.

Regards Peiper

[Reich Crispies]

I have been watching this thread with interest. Mainly to see where its heading.
This seems to be nowhere.
Its got a begining and a middle but it wont find an end.

What are we hoping to achieve here?
Some SS were elite some werent. Not really breaking news is it?
Were WSS units effective? Yes
Were some more effective than others? Yes
Can an Elite W-SS units fighting effectiveness be measured against that of a similar stature Heer group? I doubt it. We are looking back on history.
The only way is to go back in time and, for example, withdraw the W-SS units around kharkov and replace with Heer units.
Would that work? Maybe not. There is more to the fighting effectiveness of a unit than who they fight and where.
Command infrastructure, unit balance and composition for a particular theatre and even task, logistics etc.
Pick another battle, opponent or position within a battle and the outcomes change. A unit under performing at positon 'A' against opponent 'B' in our history books might have performed COMPLETLY different two miles down the road. Kill ratios to casuatly ratios can only tell so much. To answer the question headlining this thread requires more.
To do this with a statistical model would be a way forward, but the variables would be huge.
It would still only give a theroetical output, and I think we owe more to the fallen than that.

We are hobbyists, partial historians, interested observers. Some like Timmo are maybe even experts, but they even make mistakes.
The only thing we can add is OPINION. To do this we must agree to disagree.

In my honest opinion, we are going nowhere with this and I have just wasted 10 minutes typing.
If no one objects I will lock this now.
If you want to continue with this I will unlock following enough requests.