Can cliques be damaging to the continuation of the forum ?

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geoffpara

Can cliques be damaging to the continuation of the forum ?

Post by geoffpara »

Quick introduction to this thread

I have edited my original post to include this intro so that those that look in can understand where it came from.

Dave, ‘Crazy Feldgendarme’ has quite rightly divided into two the thread “See Ya” [sign of a good mod but don’t tell him I said that! ] as there was a danger of the original poster’s intentions of his thread being taken off on a tangent by ‘spamming’, or at least subverting the thread’s original objective.

Recently we have lost some long standing members from this forum and indeed in re-enactment in general. Very few know why or the details involved. Perhaps it might be best for it to remain so. However, comments in the other posts suggested that it was the interplay of different cliques that might be behind it and I thought it might be worthwhile airing some of our thoughts and give ourselves a chance to reflect on the forum, its history and original objectives, and how its membership might like to see it grow from here so I posted the following:




Not knowing the full details of what's gone on I wondered if there might be something to pick up on the other forum that might be an indication. Found two threads I thought might be enlightening the first was titled "My Dictators Worse Than Your Dictator" and the other was "Why Hitler, not Stalin?". I wondered if this was someone making a comparison between forum owners and what appears to be two autocracies. :D

That reminded me of why Alex originally set up this forum following the bannings and hostile environment for some of the membership on the other forum. I can understand Alex taking umbridge with some criticisms that might be made particularly if he thought them personal. The owner of a forum needs to be above that. That's why some safety controls need to be in place to ensure both transparency and equality of treatment and not left to one person and their own perceptions and subjectivity. The fact that this forum has now lost people of the calibre of Les, Neil, and Franz all of whom I respect for their contribution to reenacting in a very short space of time does fill me with concern with regard to where the future of this forum lies; in which direction will it now be taken and by whom; will it become an autocracy, led by a select inner circle, or will it proceed, as I hoped it would when I first joined, on a democratic basis reflecting the views of the wider membership.

I hope it isn't too late to find some way of resolving this issue.
Last edited by geoffpara on Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
berlin1945
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Re: See Ya

Post by berlin1945 »

geoff you are very balanced person it would be good to see you as a mod, also les and neil and missed as they are decent people and i always found curtious and well informed.
An Duine nach bhfuil sé Laidír caith sé a bheidh Glíc




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Bill Medland
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Re: See Ya

Post by Bill Medland »

I have not been active online due to various reasons, including health, recently.

I have also not been in contact with individuals on both sides since Beltring, it has all been a surprise to me!
So I was very distressed and saddened to read what has been going on, both here and elsewhere :(


As a member of the mod team, I will continue to do my best for the good of the hobby. I have been in this hobby
since 1977 and I do not wish to see it ruined. I love this hobby with all my body and soul.

Best wishes to you all, Bill.
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Peiper

Re: See Ya

Post by Peiper »

No offence Geoff but this forum has always been like this, there is an " inner click"
always has been :?
geoffpara wrote: does fill me with concern with regard to where the future of this forum lies; in which direction will it now be taken and by whom; will it become an autocracy, led by a select inner circle, or will it proceed, as I hoped it would when I first joined, on a democratic basis reflecting the views of the wider membership.
Ever since i joined there has been the "know more than you crowd" lol
You get this on all forums tbf, especially from members who have been
on it a while.

I remember the very first picture i posted on here, i had never been
to an event before and had only just started reenacting, all i had
was nasty poisonous comments, hardly a warm welcolme from
a forum where people are supposed to share the same hobby
and intrests and hardly a "kameraden welkomm" but i persevered and
ignored the comments, with no help from others on here i started to
amount my reenactment weapons and equipment, basically i know nothing
of the falling out or what went on but i had put up with comments and am still
here, basically i took no notice because iam above all that crap so should others.
Regards Peiper :wink:
Last edited by Peiper on Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
berlin1945
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Re: See Ya

Post by berlin1945 »

well las i did support you as i found you a decent good guy and wanting to learn regards mairtin
An Duine nach bhfuil sé Laidír caith sé a bheidh Glíc




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Peiper

Re: See Ya

Post by Peiper »

berlin1945 wrote:well las i did support you as i found you a decent good guy and wanting to learn regards mairtin
Yes mate, and i appreciate it, there are some good people on here, the trick is to learn to have a thick skin
with some of the others lol :D
Regards Peiper
geoffpara

Re: See Ya

Post by geoffpara »

Peip's, there will always be cliques, or sub-cultures, that share a similar viewpoint and culture in any large group. They can influence people by their knowledge and standing of their membership amongst other things. The issue arises when a clique exerts influence because of their position of power. That may take the form of the actions they take or even the actions they don't take. It can involve nepotism, bullying or harassment; thatnis they are abusing that power. That is when a clique has a damaging affect on the larger body.

To be fair you have had more than a fair share of criticism but I would also say that at times you have put yourself in that position, perhaps inadvertantly making yourself a target? Fortunately, you have demonstrated a thick skin to comments and observations made which not many could have handled in the way you have so all kudos to you for that. However, how many others have attracted the same level of comments and observations from the same clique? Not many I think as I certainly can't recall any names that immediately come to mind on the threads that I normally visit. It might also be a factor that you are a prolific poster on the forum so attract more attention.

Now you might be referring to posts that I am not aware of. I would be concerned if you are suggesting that there has been a clique based on the group of mods that have been abusing their influence based on their position of power. However, if it is the former and to do with the ability to influence by authority based on knowledge and expertise then if they go too far then perhaps it would be appropriate for the mods to ask them to 'lighten up' either in a one-to-one or in the open forum.

You might also notice that I don't post very often and one of the reasons is that I can't seem to write SHORT posts so my apologies to all :D
Stigroadie

Re: See Ya

Post by Stigroadie »

Peiper wrote:Ever since i joined there has been the "know more than you crowd"
Isnt that what you should expect?
I've just joined a forum that covers a new interest I have. Everyone there knows more than I do.
Thats what I would expect, what use to a new member is a forum where the new guys are the experts?
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Bill Medland
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Re: See Ya

Post by Bill Medland »

Stigroadie wrote:
Peiper wrote:Ever since i joined there has been the "know more than you crowd"
Isnt that what you should expect?
I've just joined a forum that covers a new interest I have. Everyone there knows more than I do.
Thats what I would expect, what use to a new member is a forum where the new guys are the experts?
Or you choose an impression that no one knows anything about, it can however be expensive, no "off the peg" uniform available down this road.
You may have to make the uniform yourself and use original insignia.
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Peiper

Re: See Ya

Post by Peiper »

Stigroadie wrote:
Peiper wrote:Ever since i joined there has been the "know more than you crowd"
Isnt that what you should expect?
I've just joined a forum that covers a new interest I have. Everyone there knows more than I do.
Thats what I would expect, what use to a new member is a forum where the new guys are the experts?
Yes fair enough Stig i expected that when i joined (5 yr ago) but some go out their way to rip posters apart,
i was a new comer back then and think i should've been given a bit more slack like i do with newbies, i try
to give constructive criticism rather than tearing people apart, but perhaps thats just me, however my point
being people should try to get on more without holding grudges, trouble is mud sticks to a certain degree and
find i have to prove myself more than others, sometimes i-repairable damage can be caused to peoples character
by certain comments, this is not aimed at anyone but just an observation!!!
Best regards, Peiper
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Bill Medland
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Re: See Ya

Post by Bill Medland »

Sadly there seems to be a lot of disputes on the forums recently. Most of them have their roots well outside
the hobby, some are of a very private nature, that flare up and consume the whole reenactment scene.
Of course in the 70s and 80s it was not all roses and we had the odd crisis, but they were contained and
did very little damage. This was because we had no mobile phones or internet back then, we contented ourselves
with a badly photocopied newsletter which fell into the letter box once a month. Today however, we have to be more
careful, carful that we do not consume and destroy the hobby we all love.

Years ago I would have taken sides and made a very public statement and be damned. However I almost died due to
a stress related problem last year and moving towards 60 I have to take it more careful, I am not a young tear away anymore.
I will say however that this stress was purely WW2 reenactment related, both in the UK and in Germany.

Rant over, best wishes, Bill.

(EDIT: I spellt some words the German way, I have been too long abroad)
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berlin1945
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Re: See Ya

Post by berlin1945 »

u are a good guy xxxxxxxxxxxx
An Duine nach bhfuil sé Laidír caith sé a bheidh Glíc




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Na Fianna Éireann Fíor inár gCroíthe, Neart inár Láimhe, Comhsheasmhacht inár dTeanga Sealadach
Peiper

Re: See Ya

Post by Peiper »

berlin1945 wrote:u are a good guy xxxxxxxxxxxx
Yes agreed Berlin :wink:
Imho we should stick together in this hobby, there are
people in the media and Govt who wish to stop this hobby,
they dont like us, but with people falling out and splitting up
we are giving them what they want tbh, when we are united
we are stronger and it is harder for outsiders who wish to stop
this hobby to do any damage that is my opinion, basically all
these private cliques have to stop because it isnt doing the hobby
any good imho
Regards Peiper
geoffpara

Cliques etc

Post by geoffpara »

Agree in general with what you say Peips, particularly the first part which is effectively about not dividing ourselves and becoming vulnerable to being 'conquered'. Not sure anyone can or should stop cliques as they are often created from socialisation between individuals. What we should look to do is to strive to meet the general aims of reenactment and Living History as each group interprets them. Some topics recently have been quite lively, eg the one on the other forum about reenactors vs promenaders, but from those, sometimes heated discussions, we gain from learning about different perspectives and hopefully instead of fracturing we can become more tolerant.

Willi's return to the forum is timely as is his reminder based on his recent experience as to what happens when issues become threats to individual (as in Willi's health, the continuation of groups, and the impact on the hobby as a whole. Welcome back Willi :)

Anyhow, are we spamming this thread? Should there be a new thread if it is thought worthy of discussing this further?
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Crazy Feldgendarme
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Re: See Ya

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

I believe it would be better Geoff to start a new thread if folks want to continue, else it could be construed that mods do things they stop others from doing. :wink:

So thats what i have done.

Cheers

Dave
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who screws up your day and may their arms be too short to scratch.

GeFoPo
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