SEC 5 at Beltring

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nelz
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Location: " Busy in the middle of a Skirmish "

SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by nelz »

.
Just a note to thank Rex and his team for the excellent first sec 5 performance at this years Beltring.

Special thanks to Paul , Stig , Bryn and Mark for the fluent weapon hire througout the show.Well done guys, your efforts where greatly appreciated by Ksk.
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Hoffman Grink

Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by Hoffman Grink »

Everyone always forgets Karl......... but I think he likes it that way. Thanks Nelz. We made it work for a first attempt and now we have to sit down and improve it. Booking in and everything will be made smoother...
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dagda
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by dagda »

Great work lads! Although I wanted the beer in the fridge and they gave me a k98 instead.

Seriously well done!
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Hoffman Grink

Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by Hoffman Grink »

Now the dust is literally settlling on Beltring and our first outing with WPWS we can take stock of the experience.
Stig has already commented elsewhere that it was a complete eye opener for him as it was for us all.

People are not going to like what comes next but the truth must be spoken. Why? because if we are to continue to have the priviledge of Section 5 weapons in our hands we need to appreciate just what it is we have.

People are ignorant of the law relating to the use and handling of firearms.

People are oblivious to safety issued surrounding firearms

People are uneducated in the use of firearms and the care and maintenance of firearms

People are selfish and greedy and at times endanger others.

People are arrogant and consider themselves capable when they are not.

Instances we observed whilst in charge of Section 5 weapons:

Persons leaving weapons unattended in tents (covered due to our presence but they were unaware of that)
Persons leaving weapons unattended in a vehicle within easy access of the public (weapon retrieved by ourselves and user banned from further hire)
Persons drinking whilst in possession of firearms (firearm confiscated)
Persons damaging firearms through misuse.
Persons loading firearms incorrectly causing malfunction
Persons with no muzzle awareness
Persons stating they know how to use a type of firearm and then demonstrating that statement to be untrue
Persons dropping firearms as part of a display and leaving them unattended
Persons leaving a display area and not immediately returning a weapon as per the requirements of the hire and the law.
Persons demonstrating complete lack of firearms knowledge, safety or operating procedures both on and off the field.


There - that's a stinker innit??

Positives?
Some people demonstrated good safety, good knowledged, safe handling and operating procedures and some people both drew weapons and handed them back in good condition, on time and with the appropriate level of competency. BUT NOT ENOUGH.

Before W&P other parties were already discussing with us the requirement for certification via weapons handling courses. I have a meeting with Rex shortly and this will be discussed. I will advise Rex strongly to make this compulsory for persons wishing to remain on his database and make use of his firearms. The third party will be responsible for these courses as they are both trained and accredited to do so. It will be a good thing for those concerned but I am no doubt sure there will be a lot of shouting and mooing about it.

WPWS is not like other Section 5's It does not rely on Section 5 for its primary livelihood. So it can afford to be choosy, it can afford to make itself the best and it can afford to do things right. This is not to denigrate the other Section 5s out there who do a bloody good and difficult job and service re-enactors well. The result will be that WPWS will lead the way in upping the game.

At W&P everyone got a good deal - The weapons in some cases need sorting and this is now being done - But we had to use them to find out what was needed. New weapons are being purchased and we will soon have the largest theatrical armoury available to Living History in the UK. WPWS weapons will be well maintained, serviced and cleaned between use. WPWS weapons will be relilable and through the thrid party training will malfunction less in the hands of operators. It is my view that responsible groups and re-enactors will welcome this and opt in. Those who think they know it all and those who are arrogant enough to think they do not need to learn anything will be out of the loop, thereby making the rest of us safer on the field. We can not legislate for the owners of private blank fire weapons or Section 1 owners but - in talks with the prospective training provider, Section 1 owners will be accomodated it seems.

WPWS will shortly have a website and thereby a point of contact - Plus some more previously unseen developments to make the re-enactor's life easier.

That's it - WPWS hat off - argue and pontificate away folks - We seen it, it ain't pretty and it's gonna change. it HAS to. The alternative is to lose Section 5 altogether.
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paulmfjr2
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by paulmfjr2 »

Well Done all, and I think the changes that are afoot are much needed and long over due.
Count me in and where do I go for my course :)
Bauer
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by Bauer »

Have to endorse Paul and Paul's comments. When I was in the LHA, we all undertook weapons training and safety by a range officer. This would be too serious a matter not to address professionally.
Transferred to 17 Kompanie, Infanterie Regiment, Großdeutschland....
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Brigardefuhrer
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by Brigardefuhrer »

Quite right,I was taught safe procedure at a local pistol club,before I even got an FAC.Also people have to realise how dangerous blank rounds are at close range which maim and in some case's,kill.It should be a privillage to use these weapons and not a right and remember they are not "TOYS".
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I wish none but those who desire to be actively engaged".
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JDR
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by JDR »

I have damaged hearing (tinnitus) due to a reenactor firing their gun too near my head during a public battle. Last year at Beltring i tore strips off a seasoned reenactor for firing his gun about a foot from my head. The problem is it isnt just newbies that need to be trained.

I know every group ive been in have given weapon training to their members. I bet there wont be many that will admit to not having any training thou.
And that boys is how you take a penalty.
les hearn
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by les hearn »

trouble is
the battlefields are becoming too full

as in too many reenactors in the field

ive started holding back now on doing battles .......unless required or asked now

simply because there aint no need to smother the field
i too had an incident with a close muzzle last year
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ssparatrooper
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by ssparatrooper »

in the sbg there are only sertain members authorised to use mgs and other weapons due to their drills and they are taught by competent persons within our group, there are re assesed yearly and if they mong it i wont let them use em with us, i thought all groups done this sort of thing?

perhaps we could have a little test before these individuals are allowed to hire whatever i would be up for it
gurowski
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by gurowski »

Hoffman Grink wrote: People are ignorant of the law relating to the use and handling of firearms.
People are oblivious to safety issued surrounding firearms
Welcome to the world of supplying firearms to reenactors Paul. :D
You arn't saying anything new here, its what the other sec 5 people have been saying for years, its just that your eyes have been opened to the reality of it.
But it does get worse though when you are the person who has paid out the hard earned dosh to purchase those weapons and maintain them, and you see them returned in a knocked about condition, or left lying round the place.
Hoffman Grink

Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by Hoffman Grink »

gurowski wrote:
Hoffman Grink wrote: People are ignorant of the law relating to the use and handling of firearms.
People are oblivious to safety issued surrounding firearms
Welcome to the world of supplying firearms to reenactors Paul. :D
You arn't saying anything new here, its what the other sec 5 people have been saying for years, its just that your eyes have been opened to the reality of it.
But it does get worse though when you are the person who has paid out the hard earned dosh to purchase those weapons and maintain them, and you see them returned in a knocked about condition, or left lying round the place.
Oh we knew about it Steve - we just weren't in a position to comment or do anything about it. Now we are - watch this space......
Hoffman Grink

Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by Hoffman Grink »

Browsing as I do, the www I come across this
http://faaa.forumotion.com/general-chat ... g-t319.htm
Which shows our words are read and heeded. Sadly the wee ginger misanthrope judges everyone by his own lack of morals and decency.

There is no "look at us how good are we" in the post I made - If he chooses to see it as that then so be it. As for the group not required back at COAM - his spin on it is different from the tale of being stabbed in the back thus refusing to return that I heard.

To set the record straight, especially for spineless ginger dweebs - WPWS does not care what individual groups do or don't do - What WPWS is interested in is one source of training, one standard and one competence. One level that can be relied upon to enable us to hire with confidence and users to operate with equal confidence. WPWS isn't interested in who's willy is biggest when it comes to what you train or don't train cos frankly it is irrelevant to us. No one is forcing anyone to do anything - but those who WANT to hire a section 5 from WPWS will do it as part of the requirement for hire. Those who don't want to hire don't need to do it..... simples

With my re-enactment hat on now - Some groups give very good weapons training. Others crap. Some cover too much, Some enough and some very little at all. Many pay lip service and some even tell lies. Therefore there is no way of proving the level of competence and therefore no way of gauging whether a person is fit to hire. Also, people are either unaware fo the rules of hire or completely disregard them. Therefore the rules have to form part of the education.

The training provider we are looking to work with is a current certified SAI (Small Arms Instructor) and will be delivering relevant training and information to enable people wishing to use WPWS weapons to do so. If you don't want to - Don't do the courses - simple as that. No big deal but it is certainly time that people grew up in some instances and took on some real responsibility. The Ginger Dwarf will further isolate himself with the attitudes displayed on his forum - And will find himself able to attend less and less events as time goes on. However it turns out - he will never grow a pair of balls sufficient to address matters directly with people. I for one look forward to watching him turn abruptly and walk away or go deaf and stare at his shoes the next time he spots me. :lol:
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Darkattitude
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Re: SEC 5 at Beltring

Post by Darkattitude »

Hi Paul,
There is definitely a need for improvement on the weapons handling front, I see it year in and year out at shows. My problem is that most know when it's safe to fire and the safe distances etc but as soon as they take to the battle field they forget everything they've been taught. I think you're right though and as long as Groups are willing to take their responsibilities on board and realise they have a duty of care to their members and others that their actions may affect then we may be able to move forward. I take it that any qualified Small arms instructor would be allowed to instruct the group members as long as the training is certificated and proven to have been carried out.

Got to say though, the weapons hire ran a lot more smoothly this year than other years. :wink:

I should say, people shouldn't see every new idea as someone trying to control things, if a suggestion makes sense then we should adopt it.................simple as that.

Dale.............
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