33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

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Gash
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Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:59 am

Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Gash »

Greetings peiper!

Just to comment your two points;

The guy with the cuff-title has black shoulder boards, as he is doing an engineers impression once out in the field. He REALLY likes his cuff-title... LOL

As for the French high drill, what are you referring to exactly?

We weren't sure anymore what drill which unit did- and since we've got guys doing LVF and Charlemagne, we picked a drill that would look different from the German Präsentiert das Gewehr.

If you have any pics or guide or the French drill (I could not find much) please let me know!

Thanks! :D
Peiper

Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Peiper »

Hi Gash, iam referring to the rifle being held high in the French style when doing drill, this
practice is long known and was continued by members of the LVF and Charlemagne units who
had done previous French military service, it was just a thought to make your portrayal more
unique and realistic, i will sort out some pics.
As for the engineer boards being worn with a cufftitle that would be correct, sorry your pics
are in B/W so didn't know, keep up the good work.
Regards Pipes :wink:
Cookie
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Cookie »

Hi Gash,

I like your impressions and you've shown some good efforts, however, Peiper is correct with his comments about the cufftitle and the parade drill.

The cufftitle was only worn in very, very limited numbers and from 1945 only. Initially it was issued by brigade fuhrer Krukenburg on a very limited scale to officers and NCO's who were attending training schools such as Bad Tolz and Hradishko. This was so they could 'show off' their unit title to the other trainees and cadres. The title was never issued in large numbers and was only worn by a unit sized group, the pioneers, on their return, through Prague, from training in hradishko. They took the consignment of titles back to the barracks with them but the rest of the division had already left for Pomerania. They sewed the titles onto their uniforms without authorisation. There were, in all, probably 300 men who wore the title out of 7000. Also, and I couldn't tell from the photos, but the title was only issued in the BeVo silk woven type, and not the embroidered RzM type.
Also, your guys are wearing the SS arm shield on the lower sleeve. This is where the shield was initially worn by the SS Sturmbrigade in 43-44 in galicia. When the sturmbrigade was reformed into the Charlemagne division along with the LVF and other Milice, Kreigsmarine etc personnel the shield was moved to the upper arm a fingers width below the arm eagle. So your man is wearing the shield in the wrong place with the title.
The Sturmbrigade was entirely SS trained, and operated in strict adherence to SS and German parade and discipline codes. The LVF on the other hand was very much a French inspired and trained unit and paraded in the French style. Obviously the two approaches were mixed together in 1945 when the charlemagne was formed so unit to unit would have different greatly.
On a small point, one of your guys dressed as a Sturmbrigade man is wearing a Russian Front ribbon in his button hole. The Sturmbrigade arrived too late on the Russian front to earn this medal. The LVF were issued it in great numbers but the sturmbrigade got none. Also, the vast majority of awards to the Sturmbrigade were made after the unit returned from Galicia to rest and re-equip.
Mark A - AFRA
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Gash
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Gash »

Thanks for the comments gents! Much appreciated!

Few things: I'll do some research on French High drill, as I still dont understand what is "high" about it? Just the rifle? lol

I agree for the cufftitle - but... he REALLY likes his cufftitle... lol - I will forward your post to him though.

Concerning the armshield - what would happen to the rank chevron of the charlemagne soldiers if the tricolor was moved up?

Concerning the Russian Front ribbon: would it be possible that an LVF vet recieved this award and when transfered to the Charlemagne, transfered the ribbon over?

Thank you again for these clarifications!

Take care
Cookie
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Cookie »

Gash,

The Gefreiter chevron would be worn underneath the armshield. So the arm eagle at the top, then the armshield, then the chevron. Each with a fingers width between them. Specialist trade badges were worn either above the arm eagle or on the forearm in the vicinity of where the cufftitle would be worn.

If your man moved his tricolor shield to the upper arm he would be correct for the battle of Berlin, as it is he is correct for neither. If he likes the cufftitle so much, as I do, he should put together a Berlin impression, with ski cap, pea dot trousers etc, which is the best of the French SS impressions.

As to the Russian front ribbon... The LVF personnel did not join the 'Charlemagne' Division until January/February 1945. again, your fellow with the ribbon in his button hole is dressed as a Sturmbrigade man, c. summer 1944. None of the French personnel in that unit had fought on the Russian front prior to joining. He can wear the ribbon as long as his arm shield is in the upper position to denote the later period.
The only awards seen being worn by SS Sturmbrigade men prior to their return from Galicia are French pre 1940 ribbons, and the Vichy re-issues of these ribbons. These though are not as commonly seen as say on the chests of the men of the LVF, as many of the young men in the Sturmbrigade had not previously fought in any army.

As i've said in a previous post this subject can be very challenging to get right.
Mark A - AFRA
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Storm56
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Storm56 »

xx
Last edited by Storm56 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oberschnaepser
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Oberschnaepser »

Nice pictures, tip for the MP40 pouch thing, drop them....

Horrido
Marco
"Kraftfahrer, denk' an deinen Urlaub!"
("Driver, keep your holiday in mind!")
Peiper

Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Peiper »

Just a few pointers but you probably know this lol, but no camo helmet covers were issued
and no Charlemagne cufftitles were issued to medics?? (i noticed the blue piped shoulder
straps), only Engineers/NCO's who had gone on training courses PRIOR to Berlin 45 recieved
them, but good pics all the same, nice backdrops :wink:

Regards Peiper
Franz repper
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Franz repper »

André Bayle( b.1926), died near his hometown of Marseille on March 8.
He was the author of "Des Jeux olympiques à la Waffen SS", which recalls his war in the Sturmbrigade and the Division Charlemagne.
He was very much active until his death, in various veteran's' actvities.
He fought and was captured during the Charlemagne Division battles at Pomerania in 1945. Was sent to the hellish death camp at Tambov where most of the French captured by the Russians were held. Survived and was repatriated to France in the 50s.

This a link to his book: http://www.ladiffusiondulore.fr/souveni ... 20138.html
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Peiper

Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Peiper »

Here's a pic of my Charlemagne dog-tag i had specially made recently, this is for a Grenadier
who had been enlisted in the 33rd in late 1944, as experts can see the information on it is
relating to that period after the French SS Sturmbrigade had gone through its initial changes
and became the 33rd, my Soldbuch will state that a replacement tag has been issued.

Apparantly this happened alot in the 33rd as "paramilitary" tags such as Milice and other
organizations were purposely "lost" also alot of ex French Military were enlisted from POW and
work camps so would not have been issued an earlier dog-tag previously, most of the early
Sturmbrigade volunteers would have worn the Wehrmacht tag as many had been transfered
from the early LVF formation which had seen service in Russia etc.
SS Charlemagne dogtag.jpg
SS Charlemagne dogtag.jpg (18.05 KiB) Viewed 13683 times
Cheers Pipes
Cookie
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Cookie »

Nice tag Peiper.

Storm56,

You and your mate should swap the MP40 and MP44, and the boots. He could say he is with the Berlin Leibstandarte guard battalion, therefore much more likely to have jack boots, helmet cover and smock. Get some black piped shoulder boards and you're there.
Mark A - AFRA
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Ropes
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Ropes »

Peas over wools. Did this happen often? I thought peas were worn instead of wools.
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Peiper

Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Peiper »

Ropes wrote:Peas over wools. Did this happen often? I thought peas were worn instead of wools.
Apparantly Ropes because of the time zone of the War (ie: late 44/45) and shortage of
equipment, in some cases only a peas jacket or trousers were issued not both, by the time
the Charlemagne were to go to Berlin there were only around 700 armed men left and main
priorities were arms/ammunition and food if available, if some camo clothing was around it
was issued, if not other members went without, this is going from various veteran accounts i
had come across, for the main part a greatcoat was more prized than a thin peadot tunic.
(See pic of captured Charlemagne members below being questioned by Free French troops)
French SS and Leclerc.jpg
French SS and Leclerc.jpg (16.42 KiB) Viewed 13526 times
Cheers Peiper
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Ropes
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Ropes »

I meant a peas jacket Over the top of a wool jacket. Did that happen often.
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Franz repper
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Re: 33rd Waffen SS Charlemagne

Post by Franz repper »

Ropes wrote:I meant a peas jacket Over the top of a wool jacket. Did that happen often.
yes it was common
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