wwii axis reenactment forum
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Handschar Division
http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11921
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Author:  Peiper [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Stigroadie wrote:
Peiper wrote:
it was the "perverse" remark that wound me up

Why should that wind you up?
It is possible to be perverse in a number of ways, most mean only to run against the grain or to contravene accepted norms. That's how I see re-enacting handschar.
Please highlight any bigotry or racism you see in my posts. Disapproval of your chosen costume d'jour constitutes neither.
Mr 42 gunner, I have read none of the 'propaganda' websites. Either pro or anti handschar. I have read various histories of the units that made up the German Armed forces of WW2. I dont recall one that was complimentary about the unit. These were not written by 'serbs' or anyone with an axe to grind but by historians looking only to provide a balanced review of the units of WW2.


I don't want to get involved in a religious debate, lets get back on topic please, thankyou!! :?

Cheers Peiper.

Author:  Stigroadie [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Straw man, there is no religious debate here.
You accuse me of racism and bigotry then cannot put up?

Author:  Stigroadie [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

42gunner wrote:
I've seen some of the low quality Osprey stuff.

I couldn't agree more, never read an Osprey book and not questioned something.
Never read an Osprey book on Handschar either.

Author:  Peiper [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Post moved to answer new question!!

Author:  Stigroadie [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

I am and I do.
If that is bigotry then I'm a bigot but I'm certain it isnt.
Do you even know what the word 'Bigot' means? I see nothing in the sentence you quote that gets anywhere close.
I dont think we can say I'm a bigot from you feeble evidence, lets look at racism shall we. Where did I display signs of that?
Come on, you made the accusations now you want to run away and hide because you 'dont want to discuss race or religion'. Sorry Pipes, impossible considering the unit whose uniform you wear.
Either convince me and the forum of my racism and bigotry or apologise and shut up.
It might be a better case of kettle calling pan? It could easily been seen that your choice of uniform might be seen as racist and bigoted. I dont think so but it is a more convincing argument than you have put forward to try and libel me.

Author:  Peiper [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Stigroadie wrote:
Is it some desire to appear perverse as our troops daily face a hidden Muslim enemy to parade in what was, you say, a mostly Muslim unit?

If you share their religious convictions then I might have some sympathy with your choice but I see nothing to support that in anything you post.



Stig i don't want to keep harping on this but if you insist. :roll:

Basically from your previous comments you are inferring that iam perverse choosing
the Handschar portrayal when our own British Army are fighting the Afghan Muslims,
am i right in thinking you meant this??, also in my opinion you are basically inferring
that the nation that fought with the Handschar ie Croatia/Bosnia are the same as the
Afghan Muslims, if this is not bigotry then it smacks of ignorance!!

Then you are finish off saying that you have sympathy with my choice of portrayal as a
Muslim, why is that?, is there something wrong with portraying a Muslim soldier because i
can't see anything?, also whats my religious convictions have to do with anything??, this is a
hobby we are talking about, the same as when you dress up as a German soldier it is pretend,
you are not claiming to be a German soldier and neither am i claiming to be a Muslim !!

Is that more clearer????

Peiper

Author:  Stigroadie [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

I asked IF it was a desire to be perverse, not that it was,
There is no intention to 'infer' Yugoslavian muslims are the same as Afgan muslims, but they are both Muslim?
That is not bigotry, nor is it ignorance but a fact.
The biggest part of the handschar was their ethnicity, where they came from and what religion they followed. Apart from their poor record those are the major topics that set them apart from other regional/ethnic SS divisions. It is impossible to talk about the division without comment on that. Is that racist or bigoted? No, it isnt.
I would have sympathy if you chose to dress as handschar because you shared some religious or ethnic connection but because they are such a poor division in combat and their record breaking desertions, I struggle to understand why you would be drawn to them otherwise. Just the dressy up nature of the fez? I didn't think you were that shallow, I've been wrong before though.
This is a hobby but there are those who try and push the envelope on what is considered in good taste. I dont think Handschar is in good taste. Again I might be wrong.
Is that clearer?

Author:  Peiper [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

No Stig
As i said before i got the Handschar bug when i used to do the WH-Gebirg portrayal
and because they did it i got the impression together, thats it basically not for any
religious conviction or political machination!!!

I continued the impression and research because of the unusual nature of the Unit
and also not many people do it and so in my opinion is a rarely seen portrayal.

I must have read too much into your previous posts, if that is the case i apologise
publically for thinking your views were of a racial nature and do this in full view of
the forum without hiding behind PM's and behind the scenes, unfortunately that is
how they appeared to me at the time and looked as if you were having a personal dig??
but this was before you explained your self, unlike some if iam wrong i will admit so in
public, but also expect the same in return!!

PS: My previous post was deleted by accident when i pressed edit instead of quote (doh!)

Cheers Pipes.

Author:  42gunner [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Stigroadie wrote:
I asked IF it was a desire to be perverse, not that it was,
There is no intention to 'infer' Yugoslavian muslims are the same as Afgan muslims, but they are both Muslim?
That is not bigotry, nor is it ignorance but a fact.
The biggest part of the handschar was their ethnicity, where they came from and what religion they followed. Apart from their poor record those are the major topics that set them apart from other regional/ethnic SS divisions. It is impossible to talk about the division without comment on that. Is that racist or bigoted? No, it isnt.
I would have sympathy if you chose to dress as handschar because you shared some religious or ethnic connection but because they are such a poor division in combat and their record breaking desertions, I struggle to understand why you would be drawn to them otherwise. Just the dressy up nature of the fez? I didn't think you were that shallow, I've been wrong before though.
This is a hobby but there are those who try and push the envelope on what is considered in good taste. I dont think Handschar is in good taste. Again I might be wrong.
Is that clearer?


Once again you base your beliefs on Handschar without any proof. I've gone through alot of effort to make a thread (50% complete) explaining Handschar's combat record vs. the common beliefs.
"poor division in combat"
prove it, give me the source/document
I've exlained the desertion thing already. Nobody seems to read credible facts

Us that have given more tought to the whole situation, circumstances surrounding the Division have learned more than what the propaganda machine has put out on this subject.


viewtopic.php?f=25&t=13540&start=45

Image

Author:  Franz repper [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Out of the Muslim SS divs Handschar was one of the Best it was rased as a anti partisan unit only
Stig you should read Hitlers Jihadis a very good book and alot more indepth than a Osprey book :lol:

Author:  les hearn [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

hmm it seems me and the 85th gebirgs shouldnt show the fezzes then :roll:

Author:  Franz repper [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

les hearn wrote:
hmm it seems me and the 85th gebirgs shouldnt show the fezzes then :roll:

Oh Les I thought you lot were some sort of Tommy cooper tribute act !

Author:  Stigroadie [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1960
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffe ... roatian%29
http://www.feldgrau.com/13ss.html
A book I no longer own, http://www.amazon.com/Himmlers-Bosnian- ... 0764301349
but it is generally accepted as a fair look at the division from a neutral author.
Also German Order of Battle Volume Three: Panzer, Panzer Grenadier, and Waffen SS Divisions in WWII by Mitcham part of the Stackpole Military History series.

Author:  JDR [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Himmler's Bosnian Division is a good book on the subject

Author:  les hearn [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

hehehe just like that :lol: :lol:


to be fair yes they had what is described as a "mutiny" ....but then so did the high command of the riech

and towards the end of the war the whole german army had elemants surendering to the allies or working with em :wink:

so it can be said that the whole german army had some sort of "mutiny" inside..somewhere

as for the known warcrimes then so again did other german units :wink:

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