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Handschar Division
http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11921
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Author:  42gunner [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Franz repper wrote:
42gunner wrote:
Do some research and stop reading from serbianna.com and other propaganda sites....that's as politely as I can say it.
Or read this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=13540

I need your source on the murders and retreats in the face of the enemy.
Single battalions of Handschar stood in face of entire partisan divisions during the summer of 1944, inflicting heavy casualties while suffering a few wounded. During it's first 2-3 weeks of existance, 80 Iron Crosses were awarded.
By May of 1944, a huge proportion of Regt. 28 rated to wear the Anti Partisan Badge alone.


No link to the Arab insurgents and Jihad can be drawn from Handschar period.
Do some research.



Some of US have done some research !
A partisan division was not like a army Division the numbers could be as little as 150 or 1500 men that should be made clear from the start should it not ?



Quote:
No link to the Arab insurgents and Jihad can be drawn from Handschar period.

Alija Izetbegovic ? name ring any bells ???

I have done a Little research I was there in 1994,1995, and 1997 I have walked the areas that Handschar fought and had all the talks by the UN .

If well lead they were good troops for the job they were tasked to do and that was anti partisan . It was what they were raised to do the idea was this would then in turn free up other German units for service in Russia
Atrocities yes they did some but they were amateurs compaired with Ustasha and SS Skanderbeg


Alija Izetbegovic, yes, member of the Young Muslims organization during WW2. Popular belief is that he recruited for Handschar. During the last war, during which I was in Bosnia from day 1 till the peace was signed, Izetbegovic (for some time) allowed foreign fighters to come in and fight on our side. Which was everyone from Arabs to South Africans. Croats, traditionally let their own supremacist mercenaries fight, so it's nothing new or original. It's the Balkans.

The partisan divisions I mentioned (16th and 36th Vojvodina) numbered at about 10,000 men. The partisans tried to overwhelm the lone Handschar battalions (Lopare, Sekovici, Vlasenica) sending entire divisions against battalions, so thats 5,000 partisans vs 700-1.000 SS men.
I've heard of brigades being a 150 men strong but never divisions.
(There is a document on the 16th Vojvodina and 17th East Bosnian Div. being 10.5K strong all together)
I think it takes alot more than amateurs to win when outnumbered 5 to 1

Handschar cannot be compared to the 3rd rate Ustasa or Skanderbeg. The nucleus of the Skanderbeg division (the former I/28 battalion) fought well during 3 operations in Bosnia (spring 1944)
Comparing Handschar to the Ustasa is another huge oversimplified judgement of the situation.


Handschar fought for an autonomous Bosnia, I cant stress how important that is. The division had no other secondary motifs that were more important at that time.

Author:  SchnellMeyer [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Interesting topic guys , just to add a little on Handschar .I met Albert Stenwedel who won his Knights cross with Handschar at the end of the war . Albert was a early member of the prewar L.A.H. and he served in 1 Kompanie .

Author:  42gunner [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Stigroadie wrote:
I've ordered another copy of Himmlers Bosnian Division, time to re-read it i think.
Perish the thought that I be accused of being closed minded? :shock:



on the sidearm note?
- a sincere go **** yourself
i dont have any reenacting experience but i am a combat veteran, I could care less about what sidearm translates to in german. I know how to use and I have.

have fun with your pussy little hobby

Author:  42gunner [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Stigroadie wrote:
42gunner wrote:
Maybe Ive spent too much time on the axis history forum. Not enough to learn what a sidearm is?

Can any of you people back up your claims with actual proof? Can you though? Is what is posted proof only if you agree with it and everything you dont agree with is anti-Handscar propaganda?

What desertion trend was Handschar starting? They were not, that was a devise used to show how ridiculous another statement was. We use ridicule and satire and sometimes irony to get people to look at other sides of a coin.
When entire countries were switching sides and became allied with the western powers in that time period.
As I said before, they werent desertions, it was a refusal to move out of Bosnia. When you are in an army you do not get to chose where or who you fight. This refusal alone is enough to make the division useless to the high commandOfficers were court martialed and executed over this. The orders were given to move to Croatia, and no one obeyed them. Well that is mutiny, there were very well supported [by evidence]desertions, those that occurred when they faced the Soviets?
The DIVISION DID NOT have a mutiny. It was a single company of the Pioniere battalion. But which division were they a part of? It is common to say there was a mutiny in Division X if one part of Division X mutinied
I dont know why people have this idea that every battalion got together and killed some of it's officers. Where is this idea to be found? I dont see it here in this thread?I assure it was the smallest scale desertion that would occur. Most important of all, whats never mentioned is that it was the Bosnians that rose up and eliminated the mutineers. That goes against the reports I saw which says the germans suppressed the mutiny

Even Himmler had a better understanding of the situation than most of you. You think history puts weight and value on the statements of Himmler? You need to find a better and more reputable source than a mad man such as he.
“I knew there was a chance that a few traitors might be smuggled into the division, but I haven’t the slightest doubt concerning the loyalty of the Bosnians. These troops were loyal to their supreme commander twenty years ago, so why shouldn’t they be so today?”

I'm pretty much done with this thread, it is clear to me that you have one very fixed and because of your connection to the division, biased view. Anything that shows handschar in bad light you see as anti propaganda. You must also see that what we get coming from you is lots of pro propaganda? My view of history comes from looking at both sides of each story, as best I can, and considering the evidence. We are not obliged to take your version on faith and dispense with unbiased well written histories.




Sauberzweig, the most known commander of the division went on to lead another formation somewhere else, where opened up his sector to the Americans and turned his men over to them.


Lets see your claim is that Handschar was setting a mutiny trend.
Name atleast 5 units that mutinied after Nov 1943 in the same style where 3 spies orchestrated he whole event.
To say that a whole division mutinied ,once again, would mean Villefranche level type stuff in every company through every battalion and regiment. Is that a good description?
30+ company sized mutinies?

"That goes against the reports I saw which says the germans suppressed the mutiny"

so Himmler gave out a handful of Iron Crosses to Bosnians after the mutiny for no reason at all

Author:  OliverVU [ Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

Were there perhaps any Muslims from North Africa in the Handschar division, or only from the Balkan?

Author:  42gunner [ Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handschar Division

OliverVU wrote:
Were there perhaps any Muslims from North Africa in the Handschar division, or only from the Balkan?


yes there was in fact a whole battalion from morocco and another one in Regt 28 from pakistan.... :roll:

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