Volkssturm

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LAH650
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Volkssturm

Post by LAH650 »

What sort of coat would be more suitable for Volkssturm?

a. WW1 Military Greatcoat
b. M36 or M40
c. Civilian overcoat
d. Civilian Leather coat

What style should the civilian overcoat or leather coat be.

Does anyone have an ‘old’ repro Military Greatcoat for sale (size 46” chest, long, 6’3”), condition unimportant, ok not too many holes, dirt fine....
Last edited by LAH650 on Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hoffman Grink

Post by Hoffman Grink »

It's Sturm Andrew - Volks StURm :roll:
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LAH650
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Post by LAH650 »

:oops: :oops: :oops:

What a hanker I am :wink:
Hoffman Grink

Post by Hoffman Grink »

Did you edit that did you?
Preoccupation by us olds (well not me!) with Volkssturm is a bit limiting dont you think? Last ditch, 1945..... Volksgrenadier might be a bit more rewarding - Stomach and Ear Battalions...... At least they were in the ardennes etc. and they weren't ALL old men and boys....... And they had a proper (in most cases) uniform.

I'm not sure the public would recognise or appreciate portly middle aged chapsters in Golden Pheasant, Tram Conductor, Forestry, WWI, Overcoats, Flatcaps, and other various outfits milling about festooned with Fausts and VolksMPis...... covered in brick dust......
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LAH650
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Post by LAH650 »

Ok,

Volksgrenadier...

What are we looking at uniform wise then....

Volkssturm a bit to Farby then :wink:
Cookie
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Die Deutsches VolksSturm!

Post by Cookie »

There seems to be a popular misconception that the Volkssturm had no kit and were all old or infirm. This is not the case.

Anyone who was considered to be an essential war worker was exempt from military service. This ranges from munitions workers, government civil servants, party workers, Police, engineers etc. The Third Reich had a lot of beurocrats - these were not all old or infirm. Some Jaeger units in the Alps had their own pre-war uniforms and were highly rated as marksmen and mountain troops.

The Volkssturm were becoming better equipped and uniformed by the beginning of 1945. The Party uniforms were phased out and the SA kit was worn by SA Volkssurm units - who wore a swastika armband instead of the VS one.

Some VS units on the eastern front were equipped with MP44's, MG42's, Panzerschrecks etc and not just the usually ascribed obsolete foreign rifle with a handful of rounds.

Many units were so well equipped (by mid 45 standards) that they were only distinguishable from their regular army counterparts by the armbands and the missing collar patches and shoulderboards.

Volkssturm is not farby nor is it a dead end. Its just people don't look that closely into it to see how much variety and depth there is to it.

Just read up on Battailons Fuhrer Tiburzy who won the knights cross and a clutch of tank destruction awards. He wasn't alone out there...


Volk ans' Gewehr!
Mark A - AFRA
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Hoffman Grink

Post by Hoffman Grink »

Volkssturm References
wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/volksst.htm
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/volk ... index.html
http://217.9.47.167/article.php3?id_art ... _year=2005
http://www.willy-brandt.org/bwbs_biogra ... B1464.html

Volkssturm was the Third Reich's Last Ditch Home Guard..... tell me boys (and girls) portraying regular units..... does this have ANY appeal? A rag tag collection of defeated men and boys...... sure it does!!!

Cookie - you play dress up mate - no one's going to stop you. But please don't us it's great and it's worthy...... Or I'll start telling US re-enactors they should be portraying Garrison troops in Japan. Or maybe US re-enactors should portray GIs on Okinawa or Saipan..... If Volkssturm held such appeal we'd already be doing it - trust me.

The only uniform item of the Volkssturm was the armband... The most concentrated use of the Volkssturm was in the Battle of Berlin..... They actually existed as of 18 October 1944 until the war's end in May 1945 so being generous there is a 7 month span to portray - With very little or no written reports of deployment, history or actions to draw from. Most research is from anecdotal or propagandist sources. There are one or two books on the subject but how does it constitute a worthwhile use of time..... Much better to research the regular frontline units and spend time and money following their course through the war. TFH have already done VS for a photoshoot...... Unless they intend to build an urban set for a display I can't see VS being in context whizzing along on Faust laden bicycles around grassy country shows.....

Nah - When German re-enactors have such pride in their appearance Volkssturm is best left to those who do many side impressions. It's a novelty gig and I for one would rather concentrate on a portrayal that shows the ingenuity, technological innovation and flair of the German Armed Forces of WWII not a defeated bunch of kids, civil servants and poorly, bleary eyed veterans.
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Post by BDMhistorian »

The only uniform item of the Volkssturm was the armband
That is not true.

For example, in September 1944, Gau Westphalia set up its own Volkssturm unit, the Freikorps Sauerland, which comprised several battalions and a complete staff. They wore uniforms of Organisation Todt and the Reichsarbeitsdienst and, aside from the Volkssturm rank insignia (black collar tabs with pips indicating rank) had their own insignia consisting of a white cufftitle with the lettering Freikorps Sauerland, a BeVo arm shield and a helmet decal. (The West Point museum as a surviving Freikorps Sauerland helmet captured by US troops.)

There is a book on the Freikorps Sauerland published by the city archives of the city of Unna, written by Willy Timm, which has several photos showing Freikorps Sauerland members. One specific one shows a swearing-in ceremony with uniformed members wearing helmets, bread bags, and full web gear. The sleeve insignia and helmet insignia are visible in that one as well. They even had their own specific dog tags - FKS and then the battalion number in roman numerals.

The Volkssturm in general, by the way, consisted of four levys. The first and second of those were men between 20 and 60 who were fit for service and did not hold any positions that were absolutely necessary for wartime support. The third levy were male youths between 16 and 19, and the fourth and last were those who were not fit for armed service but could be used for support and sentry duties.

While the majority of Volkssturm units were *not* uniformed, there were a bunch of them that were, such as the Freikorps Sauerland above and also some 20 units on the Oder front, one in Breslau, and some on the upper Rhine. They were completely uniformed, armed and equipped.

And there were Volkssturm units actually used in combat, not just setting up fortifications and the like. In fall of 1944, eight Volkssturm battalions served alongside the 170th Infantry.

Eh. Anyway. I think if someone went to do the in-depth research into the Volkssturm, which would be a lot more difficult due to the overall lack of sources available (especially in English), it could be a fun impression to put together for late war units. Definitely a lot better than the occasional farb coming out in a Salvation Army suit claiming to do Volkssturm.
Hoffman Grink

Post by Hoffman Grink »

But you answered your own point - Friekorps Sauerland wore OT and RAD uniforms????????? MY case remains rested...... VolksSturm Uniform - Official Item one and only - Armband.

All the blah blah blah is filler - the question was originally about an overcoat - So it would seem any period overcoat..... as long as it has a Volkssturm armband on it There - question answered. Can we move on to something else?
poteau rottenfurer
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Post by poteau rottenfurer »

I think the original question has only been partly answered

andrew also asked if anyone had anything available which might work for this impression

i dont see the need to rush off the subject- is this censorship??

andrew did not ask for a debate on whether its a worthy subject to recreate ,just information and help- surely the cornerstone of this fine forum

I for one find the whole Volksturm issue very interesting but know little about it

thanks for the info provided from all
cheers

dave g
TFH
Hoffman Grink

Post by Hoffman Grink »

poteau rottenfurer wrote: is this censorship??
No - Trigger doesn't post here!!! :lol:
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Post by BDMhistorian »

But you answered your own point - Friekorps Sauerland wore OT and RAD uniforms????????? MY case remains rested...... VolksSturm Uniform - Official Item one and only - Armband.
I did not answer my point. Yes, the Freikorps Sauerland wore OT and RAD uniforms but the individual battalions were uniformly equipped with those uniforms, ie. one battalion would be equipped with RAD uniforms, another with OT uniforms, not both mixed within the same battalion. They also did NOT use the insignia of OT or RAD, but the rank insignia of the Volkssturm (which were uniform among all Volkssturm units and consisted of black collar tabs with pips), as well as the insignia of the Freikorps Sauerland (cuff title and sleeve shield).

The FKS, by the way, did not generally use the Volkssturm armband, even though they were a Volkssturm unit.

And while the Volkssturm as a whole were not uniformly kitted out, individual battalions of the Volkssturm were indeed kitted out and armed uniformly. They also had their own rank insignia which were used among all the Volkssturm with exception, maybe, of some ad-hoc thrown together last-defense-of-the-town groupings.

As for the original question on overcoats, that absolutely depends on the Volkssturm unit. Like I said, individual units were kitted out uniformly, but the VS as a whole was not. One that I've seen frequently in period documentary footage were the Flak Helper overcoats with the two chest pockets.

As far as opinion on the subject - everyone has an opinion. Some people might not thing the Volkssturm aspect is worthwhile, others might think that it's automatically farby (even if done well). Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

However, I think there's absolutely a place for it in re-enacting, especially if we're talking about a living history display. They're supposed to be educational for the public, are they not? If so, I think the public would get more out of seeing many different things (and talking to the re-enactors about the different things they portray) than seeing ten different infantry units who've all essentially got the same kit layout.
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Post by Maus Commander »

That is not true.

For example, in September 1944, Gau Westphalia set up its own Volkssturm unit, the Freikorps Sauerland, which comprised several battalions and a complete staff. They wore uniforms of Organisation Todt and the Reichsarbeitsdienst and, aside from the Volkssturm rank insignia (black collar tabs with pips indicating rank) had their own insignia consisting of a white cufftitle with the lettering Freikorps Sauerland, a BeVo arm shield and a helmet decal. (The West Point museum as a surviving Freikorps Sauerland helmet captured by US troops.)
Yet one forgets that you are referring to the Freikorps. Straight off this places them in a different "section" away from the Volkssturm. The Freikorps was of course one of the two armed "factions" during the 1920's along with the Spartans (left wing equivalent).

Made mostly of First World War Veterans they aided in keeping the peace (and instability in most cases) in Weirmar Germany, they tended to have their old uniforms from the First World War, and even manufactured some of their own when needing new uniform. They were drilled and organized around the old First World War Structure and never really went away with the rise of Nazi Germany. (though I can find little on any Freikorps units until 1945)

The Freikorps I beleive incorporated itself into the volksturm during the final few months, its status becoming more "offical" and being dragged into what little remained of a communications system. Also, Volksturm units aside from examples like the Freikorps were very rarely "kitted out" in a uniform way.

Image

Image

So my answer to the question would be "E. Any of the above" simply because most volksturm recruits had to kit themselves out, only "offical" peice issued was the armband as Dolby says, other peices were issued, but these tended to be from ad-hoc stores, usually for regular divisions which no longer existed.
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Post by poteau rottenfurer »

good info and good debate

keep it coming but keep it clean and respectful

thanks

dave g
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