21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Moderator: Feldjager
21st Panzer Div and their smocks
A good few photos of 21st in Normandy show them wearing camo smocks.
Close examination shows that almost all have a 'soft' edge pattern rather than the hard edge of Splinter A.
Never seen a colour image but comparison of shades to Splinter A helmet covers suggests there might be at least some of the smocks in what is known as Splinter D, fluffy edge splinter or Sumpfmuster in Splinter colours.
Anyone else looked into this?
Close examination shows that almost all have a 'soft' edge pattern rather than the hard edge of Splinter A.
Never seen a colour image but comparison of shades to Splinter A helmet covers suggests there might be at least some of the smocks in what is known as Splinter D, fluffy edge splinter or Sumpfmuster in Splinter colours.
Anyone else looked into this?
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Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Do you mean this one?
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Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Yes, that's the one.
Very hard to tell from Sumpf in photos.
Very hard to tell from Sumpf in photos.
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
I really love that kind of smock... Anyone make repros of them?
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
As do Panther store .....
Jäger Stefan Halle 3./I./Geb.Jag.Reg.100
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Far more chance of the standard sumph smock being work though, however cool this rare variant is.
Very difficult to tell in b/w pictures. In all the Bundsarchive photos they all look like the same sumph smock, as do the Warsaw unit with smocks/helmet nets and the GD photos of these garments being work en mass.
Very difficult to tell in b/w pictures. In all the Bundsarchive photos they all look like the same sumph smock, as do the Warsaw unit with smocks/helmet nets and the GD photos of these garments being work en mass.
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Most of the surviving smocks that I have read anything about seem to have come from the western front.
It makes some sense in the way the colours suit the terrain.
I'm looking at how the tones of the smock compare to known Splinter A materials in the same photo.
There is one picture that has a group of infantry meeting beneath some trees with a Stug officer. Those in smocks all have helmet covers in Splinter A. The tones are identical.
Someone wore them and some sources dont consider this variant to be that rare, based on the number of surviving garments.
It makes some sense in the way the colours suit the terrain.
I'm looking at how the tones of the smock compare to known Splinter A materials in the same photo.
There is one picture that has a group of infantry meeting beneath some trees with a Stug officer. Those in smocks all have helmet covers in Splinter A. The tones are identical.
Someone wore them and some sources dont consider this variant to be that rare, based on the number of surviving garments.
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Just the western front? Of the 3 sizeable runs of photos 2 are in the east - GD and a unit reported to be in the Warsaw fighting.
I'd say impossible to tell if any of the smocks with 21st Pz Div are in Zelt colours, the smocks fade and wear so quickly. Really worn smocks appear almost one colour with little distinction between colours after use.
I'd say impossible to tell if any of the smocks with 21st Pz Div are in Zelt colours, the smocks fade and wear so quickly. Really worn smocks appear almost one colour with little distinction between colours after use.
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Its a conundrum.
If you cant conclude they are Zelt colours you also cannot assume they are Sumpf colours. The logic applied to one must apply to the other.
The one photo of the three wearing smocks with the Stug officer is quite clear and the men quite fresh looking. They dont look to have been through the ringer. They all wear splinter helmet covers. They dont even have muddy boots. see page 165, The Combat History of the 21st Panzer Division, Werner Kortenhaus.
Remember, certain units of 21st were issued smocks for the night exercise on 5th June.
If you cant conclude they are Zelt colours you also cannot assume they are Sumpf colours. The logic applied to one must apply to the other.
The one photo of the three wearing smocks with the Stug officer is quite clear and the men quite fresh looking. They dont look to have been through the ringer. They all wear splinter helmet covers. They dont even have muddy boots. see page 165, The Combat History of the 21st Panzer Division, Werner Kortenhaus.
Remember, certain units of 21st were issued smocks for the night exercise on 5th June.
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
The balance of probability is that they are in Sumph colours however, how many of surviving smocks are in Zelt colours? A tiny minority, I've never seen one for sale only the very occasional winter garment.
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Infantry soldiers issued with smocks on western front Normandy seems plausible in 44.
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Werner Palinckx and Dr.J.F.Borasarello would disagree.k43 wrote:A tiny minority
I quote; 'Garments in this pattern are often encountered indicating that they must have been produced in relatively large numbers and weren't just a variation.'
Camouflage Uniforms of the German Wehrmacht, Schiffer Publishing Ltd.
The fact you have never seen one is not really relevant.
Do they? I dont see it on their web site. I like Panther kit.Halle wrote:As do Panther store .....
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
Considering the number of camouflage garments made I'm sure whole units had them and they were made in large numbers, but still the number of surviving example's would suggest far less than the 'standard' sumph smock?
Re: 21st Panzer Div and their smocks
More than 'plausible', its factual.jlmod wrote:Infantry soldiers issued with smocks on western front Normandy seems plausible in 44.
There is no shortage of photos of 21st Panzer Div troops wearing them in Normandy on and around D-Day 6/6/44.
Because of the location and context they cannot be any other unit on that date.
The issue of smocks for the night exercise on the 5/6/44 is well recorded too.
The photos all seem to be of fuzzy edged camo smocks. Helmet covers are sharp edged splinter.
The debate hinges around the colour of the smocks, sumpf or splinter schemes. From the pics you honestly cant be certain.