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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:20 pm 
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Location: Telford
Good thread gents, keep it coming.

The picture at the start with the two tunics the one in greenish wool certainly looks like "Police Green to me" I suspect it isn't but that does show how colours taken with a camera and transferred to computer can be desceptive . Geoff what do you think about that mate ?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:50 pm 
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Location: Shropshire UK (The heart of England)
geoffpara wrote:
I’d be interested in what your group’s authenticity officer has to say about the colour for this style of tunic.

As Dave alluded to there are some significant differences between SS and Heer tunics particularly pre-war. See the books Dave mentioned and authored by MD Beaver; take a look at Feldbluse by Huart and Borg.

Yes, as ATF states, the ‘M’ series of numbers were invented by collectors to help identify the significant differences between tunics. Not all differences were given their own ‘number’ but aggregated into a smaller number of groups represented by one of the numbers we commonly use today. Huart and Borg identified at least 90 Heer circulars affecting the production of tunics so it makes sense to use a form of aggregation based on significant changes.

The colour of the wool looks to me to be more appropriate for the M43 style where, in my opinion, the range in variation of colour was based on the shade of brown resulting from the quality of the 'wool' mix of material and the dyes available. Looking at the M36 and M40 tunics the variation in colour was more related to the shades of green that can be found.

Why were changes to uniforms being made? Three reasons immediately come to mind. To reduce material costs, to reduce manufacturing costs (i.e. time taken to manufacture), and in an attempt to try and standardise and incorporate improvements resulting from feedback from the wearers of these uniforms. Your tunic appears to represent a relatively ‘early’ style of tunic, having pleated pockets, produced in ‘late’ war material. It would be difficult to suggest that was the norm which is what the majority of reenactors try to portray.

Tunics were produced earlier than the ‘year’ indicated by the collector derived term we are all familiar with particularly if you include troop trials into the mix. Replaced styles are likely to have been continued to be manufactured until old stocks of already cut materials, in this case pockets, were exhausted.

Krawczyk and Lukacs, p54 show a good picture of a refurbished M36 tunic based on that of a Langemark Hauptscharführer originally captured by the Russians. It shows all of the four pockets are of a brighter green than the more faded feldgrau of the body where it had been repaired.

You really need to check with your authenticity officer as to whether he would be happy to let you wear this tunic representing an M40 due to its predominantly based brown colour normally associated with the later style of tunics. We could continue to argue the pros and cons about the colour and as to whether it presents the ‘norm’ for that style of tunic rather than a small percentage of what might have been available. Now this is just my opinion and it is your unit’s authenticity officer that needs to make the decision. However, as it is badged up for SS, and if it is deemed not acceptable for parades by your unit you might be allowed to wear this tunic for a late war impression with a tarnjacke over the top which would hide the pleated pockets.

On another note, you might want to consider moving the epaulettes so they align with the seam between the tunic and sleeve. At the moment I believe they are too close to the collar.


Yes i agree Geoff was going to show a pic of the tunic from the Krawczyk/Lukacs book, it illustrates what i was
trying to explain about tunics being re-cut/alterred etc, one thing i was trying to do was find out the exact date of
issue/when first issued of thr "M40" tunic, i thought it would be in the "German Army Uniforms and insignia" book
by Brian L Davis but it doesn't even mention the M40 at all but goes from the M36 straight to the 1943 model tunic
which was surprising and doesn't even mention actual manufacture dates but refers to tunics as service tunic model
1936/1943 and so on

As said the "Waffen SS Uniforms" book by Krawczyk/Lukacs shows certain tunics and does mention manufacturing
differences etc but not actual date manufacture, even the "German Soldiers of WW2" by Jean de Lagarde while shows
decent pics of genuine uniforms doesn't mention manufacturing dates,

I have looked in almost all my ref books relating to uniforms etc, one book "Leibstandarte" by Sharpe/Davis does actually
mention uniform designation (pages 70, 72 & 78) but no exact dates, it does say the 1937 earlier tunics were phased out
when the SS were issued stocks of the M1936 tunics from Army stocks, it does mention later tunics had less of a "green-tint"
due to labour saving measures, one type measure was the cloth which had a 70/30 % wool/cellulose blend resulting in change
of colour, by 1944 this was reduced to 90% artificial fibres which resulted in the brown colouring in later tunics, on p78 it does
show an actual M40 tunic and goes on to say "Until 1940 the Waffen SS used the M1936 Army uniform, after that date the
coloured collar was dispensed with reverteing to field grey with the M1940 which was only superseded in 1942 and then by
only limited numbers by the M1942 produced by the SS clothing works (SS-Bekleidungswerkel)"

Peiper

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:39 pm 
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Location: UK
Should we be honest and say, this Spearhead tunic is rather poor? Not a great colour for an M40, really pushing the envelope, poor construction, like the shoulder board position, the very visible tan cotton collar backing at the throat, the way the buttons wander to the left as you go up the tunic, it defines cheap and nasty?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:53 pm 
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Yes , you're right , all of those things - In a round about way , we have - As I said in my " piece " , I wouldn't consider it acceptable for an M40 , for lots of good reasons ( i think ) and you ( and others ) have pointed out other problems with it - however , people wear what THEY believe to be " acceptable " , and justify it with all sorts of odd historical examples , and reasons to keep it , because they don't want to throw away equipment they've paid for . I've done it , and got rid ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:58 pm 
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Location: Missouri, USA
To be honest, yes it is a rather poorly made tunic. The materials and construction are both very lacking. Like I said, most of these repros have their flaws, some worse than others.

But, will this uniform work for reenactment, of course. If that's all he can afford, than he'll have to live with it until he can upgrade. I've never been the type to buy cheap and save for the good stuff, but others aren't in my situation and can't flat out buy a quality uniform right off the bat.

I'm sure if he did some tailoring, ageing and some other tweaks before posting, the comments on this thread would be quite the opposite of what they are now. I'm still of the opinion that this can be made to be an acceptable uniform. Will it perfect, not at all, but it will be an improvement over what it is now. I even bet if he went all out with the blowtorch, razor, mud, grease or what have you and re-posted it, most people wouldn't even recognize it as the same uniform as before.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:10 am 
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The cut you can live with , but you can't escape the colour ... However much grease , mud , etc. you throw at it . But , as you say .." It will work for reenactment ..if that's all he can afford ...until he can upgrade .."

Bravo to him for asking the question in the first place , I've bought some stinkers in the past , and learned from it :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:47 pm 
Thank you to the recent posters as I believe you have provided good advice to the original poster and other newer members to reenactment particularly if they are not already part of a group. Yes, perhaps we have pussy-footed around the question, maybe from a reluctance in case we are seen to be 'bullying' or unreasonable in our stance as others have been accused of in the past. However, you have raised some very good observations and comments that the original poster can now use to make his own decision. Good on you all! This shows the positive side to these forums.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Good opinion Geoff, thanks

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:44 pm 
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A question FritzLorenz dragging this of topic is the other tunic in your picture really as green as it looks ?

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May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who screws up your day and may their arms be too short to scratch.

GeFoPo

Web site http://vietnamuk.moonfruit.com

Forum http://vietnamreenactors.myfastforum.org/index.php


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:18 pm 
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Location: Shropshire UK (The heart of England)
geoffpara wrote:
Thank you to the recent posters as I believe you have provided good advice to the original poster and other newer members to reenactment particularly if they are not already part of a group. Yes, perhaps we have pussy-footed around the question, maybe from a reluctance in case we are seen to be 'bullying' or unreasonable in our stance as others have been accused of in the past. However, you have raised some very good observations and comments that the original poster can now use to make his own decision. Good on you all! This shows the positive side to these forums.


Yes i did say originally that "Spearhead" is not a place for quality items imho, thats a warning to anybody reading this that
don't know, basically you get what you pay for off them, in a nutshell it is a lower end of the supplier spectrum in my opinion.
Personally i would rather save up for a decent bit of kit than buy something just to make do with because it was all i could
afford but thats me, we all have bills/rent to pay etc, i personally go without other things such as nights out etc to fund my
hobby.

Iam on a medium wage too so cannot afford to do everything, but one thing i have learnt is that if you buy cheap shoddy
goods you end up paying double anyway because you end up having to replace them in the end, that's my advice, the only
thing i can suggest can be done with the tunic now is if you know somebody who is handy with a needle ask them to take out
the pocket pleats, that way maybe you can get away with it looking as an M42 tunic instead.
Good luck, Pipes ;-)

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ww2airbornegroup.webs.com


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