Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

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BedsnHerts
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by BedsnHerts »

peiper1944 wrote:foreign
factories such as Czech and Hungary they were probably still making the M40 tunic up until 42 i would say but not
in German controlled factories as it was officially phased out in 42 in favour of the M42,
Not heard of that before. What's your source for this information?
peiper1944 wrote:what i dont agree with is that
the M40 tunic was made pre War, that is ridiculous, where is the evidance?
The evidence is in the manufacturers' date stamps.
Now it's possible that ATF have mistaken a M40 for an earlier model, but considering his breadth of knowledge on the subject, I'd think it pretty unlikely.
As stated, the M. designations were conjured up by collectors. These codes were never used at the time.
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Crazy Feldgendarme
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

The date stamps are like all evidence subjective there were so many variations/manufactures and field alterations so as to make them unreliable in many cases, also I am wary of holding ANY source as the font of all knowledge since if you compare a dozen web sites and a dozen books you will come up with a dozen different opinions, also undoubtably the photo is in black and white which makes it virtually impossible to make out the wool colour and even if it were in colour the early film made bottle green in some cases seem Brown not to mention the fact that we are talking 70 year old uniforms here where the colour will have altered considerably over the years, then of course there is the fact that colour does not show up well on computers as original.
I do agree that the date stamps were put on at the time but it is quite possible that a lining from an earlier tunic was put into a later one as a repair. This was not unusual

Never believe dates because they can be completely misleading
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BedsnHerts
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by BedsnHerts »

Hmm. Not sure how much I buy into the idea of second hand linings being sewn into later jackets as a common occurrence but I suppose it's not impossible.
It would be nice to see the actual jacket he has.
Totally agree with you on not knowing how much an original has changed in shade over the years.
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peiper1944
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

Crazy Feldgendarme wrote:The date stamps are like all evidence subjective there were so many variations/manufactures and field alterations so as to make them unreliable in many cases, also I am wary of holding ANY source as the font of all knowledge since if you compare a dozen web sites and a dozen books you will come up with a dozen different opinions, also undoubtably the photo is in black and white which makes it virtually impossible to make out the wool colour and even if it were in colour the early film made bottle green in some cases seem Brown not to mention the fact that we are talking 70 year old uniforms here where the colour will have altered considerably over the years, then of course there is the fact that colour does not show up well on computers as original.
I do agree that the date stamps were put on at the time but it is quite possible that a lining from an earlier tunic was put into a later one as a repair. This was not unusual

Never believe dates because they can be completely misleading
Yes as usual i agree with what you are saying Feldgendarmrie, i too would have to see this "Pre War M40" jacket tbh,
another misleading factor was the Pre War off white drillich HBT work clothing, these by order had been redyed in 1939
to a field grey colour also the early 1934 type without pockets were often customised by the soldier himself or a favour
from the camp tailor, many had pockets added etc so from a distance in original pics these resemble the M40 tunic, (see
below)
SS HBT pic 1.jpg
SS HBT pic 1.jpg (44.35 KiB) Viewed 5800 times
SS HBT pic 2.jpg
SS HBT pic 2.jpg (29.4 KiB) Viewed 5800 times
SS HBT pic 3.jpg
SS HBT pic 3.jpg (58.48 KiB) Viewed 5800 times
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peiper1944
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

BedsnHerts wrote:
peiper1944 wrote:foreign
factories such as Czech and Hungary they were probably still making the M40 tunic up until 42 i would say but not
in German controlled factories as it was officially phased out in 42 in favour of the M42,
Not heard of that before. What's your source for this information?
Not being funny but your source of information for M40 tunics was to post a link
from ATF showing M42 and M43 tunics, my sources of information are many, i read a certain piece
of information from certain books and remember it, not just that but i also base my opinion on
what ive seen or owned, for instance i own a deact MG-34 not amazing but it is stamped "DOT-44"
that means it is Czech made also made in 1944, so for example a 1934 model machine gun was still
being made under contract for the Germans in Czechslovakia in 1944 that is what is unusual, i have found
that with a lot of foreign contract made stuff i have owned or seen, it is usually an early pattern item but mid
or late War dated
peiper1944 wrote:what i dont agree with is that
the M40 tunic was made pre War, that is ridiculous, where is the evidance?
BedsnHerts wrote:The evidence is in the manufacturers' date stamps.
Now it's possible that ATF have mistaken a M40 for an earlier model, but considering his breadth of knowledge on the subject, I'd think it pretty unlikely.
As stated, the M. designations were conjured up by collectors. These codes were never used at the time.
As for this question i would have to see this M40 styled pre War dated tunic myself first, and yes i know these "M"
designations were conjured up by collectors, i said that myself but it was a way of catagorizing items into time frames,
basically the M40 tunic was first seen worn in the 1940 period thats what it means and i agree with this because i haven't
seen it being worn in earlier photographs and as said don't always believe date stamps, just ask yourself, if the M40 tunic
was made pre War why were they still making the M36 tunic and the M37 tunic, it doesn't make sense and when i say where's
the evidance i mean original pre War pics showing this item (M40 tunic) being worn.
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FritzLorenz
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by FritzLorenz »

BedsnHerts wrote:Hmm. Not sure how much I buy into the idea of second hand linings being sewn into later jackets as a common occurrence but I suppose it's not impossible.
It would be nice to see the actual jacket he has.
Totally agree with you on not knowing how much an original has changed in shade over the years.
Agree with you.

This is a complex but interesting subject. I will do some research in the next days and if I find new pertinent information that could lighten up all those mysteries, I will post them here.
BedsnHerts
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by BedsnHerts »

peiper1944 wrote: Not being funny but your source of information for M40 tunics was to post a link
from ATF showing M42 and M43 tunics, my sources of information are many
No, the picture link was to M42 and M43s in various shades, showing that tunics made in that era (of whatever cut, including an M40) could be very brown in shade. The evidence of a 38 dated M40 is Mr ATF telling us he had a 38 dated M40 or more specifically a M40 with a lining stamped 38. Maybe he can give us a few pics if you doubt him.
Your info on the M40 being "officially phased out" intrigues me and I'd like to know where you got that info from. You said you had many sources, so please share some
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peiper1944
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

BedsnHerts wrote:
peiper1944 wrote: Not being funny but your source of information for M40 tunics was to post a link
from ATF showing M42 and M43 tunics, my sources of information are many
No, the picture link was to M42 and M43s in various shades, showing that tunics made in that era (of whatever cut, including an M40) could be very brown in shade. The evidence of a 38 dated M40 is Mr ATF telling us he had a 38 dated M40 or more specifically a M40 with a lining stamped 38. Maybe he can give us a few pics if you doubt him.
Your info on the M40 being "officially phased out" intrigues me and I'd like to know where you got that info from. You said you had many sources, so please share some
Hi mate yes the sources are many, I cant be specific
unfortunately as I have many ref books but will dig
some out with reference to tunics, one I mentioned
earlier (above) "Waffen SS Uniforms and Insignia
which touches on the subject of manufacturing
and there are others but as far as I can remember
they give no specific date on when certain tunics
were made which is annoying, unfortunately a lot
of my ref books are not to hand as I have no room
where I live now for all of them but be assured I
will look into them more closely
Regards Pipes
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FritzLorenz
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by FritzLorenz »

Someone have pictures of a prewar M33 tunic? It could be at least a part of the explanation about the prewar pictures showing tunics that looks like the M40 variation.
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peiper1944
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

FritzLorenz wrote:Someone have pictures of a prewar M33 tunic? It could be at least a part of the explanation about the prewar pictures showing tunics that looks like the M40 variation.
Below are pics of a Weimar Republic band tunic in comparison with a WW1 (1910-Model) tunic
Weimar republic band tunic.jpg
Weimar republic band tunic.jpg (79.63 KiB) Viewed 5716 times
WW1 tunic.jpg
WW1 tunic.jpg (8.15 KiB) Viewed 5716 times
As can be seen on the Weimar type tunic, it is long in the skirt similar to the WW1 type but with addition
of breast pockets, as far as it goes with the "Pre-War M40 dated type" that ATF said they own i would
go along with Feldgendarmerie's comment regarding "re-modelled" tunics, not so much that an early dated liner
was used but more likely certain early dated tunics were "altered/restyled" by camp tailors such as the addition
of pleated pockets and other features added, i have seen this done with other tunics, there is a pic in the "Waffen
SS Uniforms" book" i mentioned previously showng an M42 tunic with M36 dark green collar added which apparantly
was done quite often such as pockets etc added, that seems the only plausible explanation for Pre-War dated M40
style tunics in existance in my opinion

I would say the M37 tunics were restyled/cut to the M40 modifications then re-issued but still bearing the original
Pre-War issue dates, it would be unlikely they would alter the M36 type as these were used throughout the War,
more likely a "phased" out type, that is my opinion on this after a lot of researching

Cheers Peiper
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Halle
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by Halle »

We're drifting a bit here gentlemen .. The M40 tunic in question - is it an " acceptable " colour ..?

We have to consider , if it was generally introduced in 1940 , it's concept must have been prior to the year 1940 - for example , to my knowledge , the M44 was trialled in Russia BEFORE 1944 , in '42/43 , before it general , and official , introduction .

Using that logic , the M40 would have been produced using the superior quality wools and fabrics available before 1940 , maybe even pre War ?

The colour of the M44 ranges from Green to Brown , because its concept and production was mid to late war , affected by worsening industrial production - the German tunics smartness and quality degraded steadily as the war progressed - the M40 , however , should have a consistency of colour / manufacture possible under less stressful war situations .

So ...could the M40 have been produced in this colour ? Possibly , but unlikely , unless , as has been suggested , it was produced in a factory OUTSIDE the Reich , using poor quality , late year wool .

Would I be happy with this coloured tunic ? No .
Jäger Stefan Halle 3./I./Geb.Jag.Reg.100
FritzLorenz
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by FritzLorenz »

I found pictures of M33 tunics on this forum ''http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/''. I seems that we must be member of the forum to see the pictures.

Here is a link that shows a M33 tunic with a modified collar(so now the M33 tunic looks like a M36 except there is no belt supports in the front of the tunic):

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... 671&page=4

Here is a link with pictures that shows a M33, a M34 and a M35 tunics:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... p?t=316251

So, we still have M40 tunics dated 1938 and 1939. But we can also see M33 tunics on prewar pictures that will looks like M40 tunics except for the absence of belt supports in the front. Just to complicate a little more the situation :mrgreen:

Halle, thanks for sharing your opinion. As we mentionned before, it seems that M40 tunics have been produced from 1938 until at least 1943. So, my guess is that the quality of the wool used for M40 tunics varied a lot depending of when it was made. I guess a M40 tunic made in 1943 can be made with the same type of wool used for a M42 or M43 tunic made in 1943. Anyway, I will use this tunic for late war impression so personally I am happy with it in that reenacting context, but I would not be happy with it in an early war context.
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peiper1944
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

Halle wrote:We're drifting a bit here gentlemen .. The M40 tunic in question - is it an " acceptable " colour ..?

We have to consider , if it was generally introduced in 1940 , it's concept must have been prior to the year 1940 - for example , to my knowledge , the M44 was trialled in Russia BEFORE 1944 , in '42/43 , before it general , and official , introduction .

Using that logic , the M40 would have been produced using the superior quality wools and fabrics available before 1940 , maybe even pre War ?

The colour of the M44 ranges from Green to Brown , because its concept and production was mid to late war , affected by worsening industrial production - the German tunics smartness and quality degraded steadily as the war progressed - the M40 , however , should have a consistency of colour / manufacture possible under less stressful war situations .

So ...could the M40 have been produced in this colour ? Possibly , but unlikely , unless , as has been suggested , it was produced in a factory OUTSIDE the Reich , using poor quality , late year wool .


Would I be happy with this coloured tunic ? No .
Sorry to drift off the original topic but the debate got
onto as you know the actual date of manufacture of
the M40 tunic, as for the one in question I would
say it was acceptable as said previously for a
"Battle type tunic" I would get a better one in
the usual colour for best/parades etc
Peiper
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geoffpara

Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by geoffpara »

I’d be interested in what your group’s authenticity officer has to say about the colour for this style of tunic.

As Dave alluded to there are some significant differences between SS and Heer tunics particularly pre-war. See the books Dave mentioned and authored by MD Beaver; take a look at Feldbluse by Huart and Borg.

Yes, as ATF states, the ‘M’ series of numbers were invented by collectors to help identify the significant differences between tunics. Not all differences were given their own ‘number’ but aggregated into a smaller number of groups represented by one of the numbers we commonly use today. Huart and Borg identified at least 90 Heer circulars affecting the production of tunics so it makes sense to use a form of aggregation based on significant changes.

The colour of the wool looks to me to be more appropriate for the M43 style where, in my opinion, the range in variation of colour was based on the shade of brown resulting from the quality of the 'wool' mix of material and the dyes available. Looking at the M36 and M40 tunics the variation in colour was more related to the shades of green that can be found.

Why were changes to uniforms being made? Three reasons immediately come to mind. To reduce material costs, to reduce manufacturing costs (i.e. time taken to manufacture), and in an attempt to try and standardise and incorporate improvements resulting from feedback from the wearers of these uniforms. Your tunic appears to represent a relatively ‘early’ style of tunic, having pleated pockets, produced in ‘late’ war material. It would be difficult to suggest that was the norm which is what the majority of reenactors try to portray.

Tunics were produced earlier than the ‘year’ indicated by the collector derived term we are all familiar with particularly if you include troop trials into the mix. Replaced styles are likely to have been continued to be manufactured until old stocks of already cut materials, in this case pockets, were exhausted.

Krawczyk and Lukacs, p54 show a good picture of a refurbished M36 tunic based on that of a Langemark Hauptscharführer originally captured by the Russians. It shows all of the four pockets are of a brighter green than the more faded feldgrau of the body where it had been repaired.

You really need to check with your authenticity officer as to whether he would be happy to let you wear this tunic representing an M40 due to its predominantly based brown colour normally associated with the later style of tunics. We could continue to argue the pros and cons about the colour and as to whether it presents the ‘norm’ for that style of tunic rather than a small percentage of what might have been available. Now this is just my opinion and it is your unit’s authenticity officer that needs to make the decision. However, as it is badged up for SS, and if it is deemed not acceptable for parades by your unit you might be allowed to wear this tunic for a late war impression with a tarnjacke over the top which would hide the pleated pockets.

On another note, you might want to consider moving the epaulettes so they align with the seam between the tunic and sleeve. At the moment I believe they are too close to the collar.
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by dixiedrummer »

Good eye geoffpara, I hadn't even noticed the shoulder board placement. That's one of the downsides to most repro uniforms, the armscye is constructed completely wrong.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is seeing that this is an SS pattern uniform, I think the likelihood of an m40 being produced in '43 would be a very rare occurrence. The SS had to come up with everything on their own. Due to this, the material allotment for uniforms was sacrificed even more, leading to much earlier instances of simplification. The Heer had a better supply system established and I could see where m40s for Army use could be produced later into the war.
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