Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

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peiper1944
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

FritzLorenz wrote:http://atthefront.com/historical_refere ... unics.html

From the link: '' There are original photos of troops at the 1938 Party Rally wearing "M40's" and my originals are dated 38, 39 and 43 respectively.''
I doubt that SS troops would be wearing M40 tunics at a 1938 rally as the name suggests the M40 was introduced in 1940,
i would suspect these men in the 1938 pic to be wearing the 1937 VT tunic which was similar to the M40 except the lower
pocket flaps were slanted

To recap what i said above the M40 tunic features have pointed pocket flaps, 5 front buttons and pocket pleats if the tunic
does not have these features they are not the M40 style tunic regardless what your link says
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

I have added some pics of German tunics as i think there may be some confusion
on details/differences
SS M37 tunic.jpg
SS M37 tunic.jpg (46.66 KiB) Viewed 4526 times
M37 SS-VT tunic, notice slanted lower pocket flaps
M36 tunic.jpg
M36 tunic.jpg (29.89 KiB) Viewed 4526 times
M36 tunic, notice early features such as dark green felt collar, trapazoid pocket flaps
pleated pockets and five buttons
m40_tunic epic.jpg
m40_tunic epic.jpg (27.52 KiB) Viewed 4526 times
M40 tunic, notice absence of dark green collar but retains the trapazoid pocket flaps,
pleated pockets and five buttoned front
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peiper1944
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

Some more tunic pics, to show differences
M42 tunic.jpg
M42 tunic.jpg (14.01 KiB) Viewed 4524 times
M42 tunic, notice absence of green collar and pocket pleats but retains
pointed (trapazoid) pocket flaps, this version which is SS also retains the
five front button feature while on WH versions would have six buttons
m43_tunic.jpg
m43_tunic.jpg (27.68 KiB) Viewed 4524 times
M43 tunic, notice absence of green collar, flat pocket flaps plus no
pleats on pockets and more buttons (x6)
M44 tunic.jpg
M44 tunic.jpg (19.98 KiB) Viewed 4524 times
M44 tunic, the last type of wool tunic produced, notice absence of pleated pockets,
flat pocket flaps and even the tunic skirt edge shortened to save money on production

Peiper
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Crazy Feldgendarme
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

Nicely put togeather for tunic identification Pipes well done. Especially the difference between Heere and SS tunics.
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

Crazy Feldgendarme wrote:Nicely put togeather for tunic identification Pipes well done. Especially the difference between Heere and SS tunics.
No probs, i posted the pics to help as i think there was some confusion with identifying certain tunic features :wink:

Regards Pipes
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by FritzLorenz »

I woulkd like to see the original pictures of the 1938 Party Rally mentionned by ''At the Front'' because those guys seems to know what they are talking about. I highly doubt they would not make the difference between a M37 and a M40. There is a big difference between those models and it is extremely easy to see.

Remember that they also have an M40 tunic dated 1938 and that the names ''M36'', ''M40'', ''M42'', etc, have been created by collectors and not by the Germans. So, ''M40'' does not mean that the production started in 1940. If you did not already done that, I highly suggest you read their page, they bring very interesting points about the german tunics. It could be the end of the confusion :wink: :

http://atthefront.com/historical_refere ... unics.html
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

FritzLorenz wrote:I woulkd like to see the original pictures of the 1938 Party Rally mentionned by ''At the Front'' because those guys seems to know what they are talking about. I highly doubt they would not make the difference between a M37 and a M40. There is a big difference between those models and it is easy to see.

Remember that they also have an M40 tunic dated 1938 and that the names ''M36'', ''M40'', ''M42'', etc, have been created by collectors and not by the Germans. So, ''M40'' does not mean that the production started in 1940. If you did not already done that, I suggest you read their page, they bring very interesting points about the german tunics:

http://atthefront.com/historical_refere ... unics.html
No mate i will have to disagree, there is some confusion somewhere, the M40 tunic came out in 1940, why do you think
in 1939 Poland SS troops were still wearing the M37 SS-VT tunic, later the WH Oberkommando decided to issue the SS
with tunics from their own stocks (M36) until the SS started to make their own which was based on the M40, the only
difference between the SS-Bekleidungswerke (SS-BW) M40 tunic and the WH version was they had 2 sometimes 4 belt
supporting holes while the WH version only had three as a rule also SS versions were normally stamped with the "SS-BW"
product stamp (Information from "Waffen SS Uniforms and Insignia" by Wade Krawczyk and Peter Lukacs)
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by BedsnHerts »

Peiper, do you agree that M40s were manufactured up until 1943?
If so, why would those manufacturers not have the same limitations of material faced by those making the latter versions?
The point being made by ATF is that original jackets, like original helmets, sport a huge variance in colours.
Re-enactor angst over the "correct" shade of feldgrau seems to be mostly a nonsense.

If, as you claim, the M40 wasn't produced before 1940, why does Mr ATF have two dated 38 and 39??
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

There is one SS tunic missing Pipes that is the LAH guard tunic which was similar to the M37 but had French cuffs and the rear was similar to the Waffenrock the wool had a noticeable blue tinge to it, only the LAH were allowed this tunic and other units were banned from obtaining them, source. Uniforms of the Waffen SS, Schiffer military publications, Michael D Beaver
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

BedsnHerts wrote:Peiper, do you agree that M40s were manufactured up until 1943?
If so, why would those manufacturers not have the same limitations of material faced by those making the latter versions?
The point being made by ATF is that original jackets, like original helmets, sport a huge variance in colours.
Re-enactor angst over the "correct" shade of feldgrau seems to be mostly a nonsense.

If, as you claim, the M40 wasn't produced before 1940, why does Mr ATF have two dated 38 and 39??
No i agree that different shades were possible as there were many manufacturers and it is possible that in foreign
factories such as Czech and Hungary they were probably still making the M40 tunic up until 42 i would say but not
in German controlled factories as it was officially phased out in 42 in favour of the M42, what i dont agree with is that
the M40 tunic was made pre War, that is ridiculous, where is the evidance?, all the pics ive seen pre War up until 1939
of SS/WH troops they are wearing either the SS M37 or the standard M36 tunic, ATF have made an error in my opinion
or has been read incorrectly
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by peiper1944 »

Crazy Feldgendarme wrote:There is one SS tunic missing Pipes that is the LAH guard tunic which was similar to the M37 but had French cuffs and the rear was similar to the Waffenrock the wool had a noticeable blue tinge to it, only the LAH were allowed this tunic and other units were banned from obtaining them, source. Uniforms of the Waffen SS, Schiffer military publications, Michael D Beaver
Yes mate i also missed out the M34 tunic too which was in black for SS Allgemeine troops and field grey for Officers and
SD troops, the field grey version was usually made in trikot, recapping the debate Feldgendarme would you say the M40
Tunic was made pre War as i have never heard this before, all the information/pics i have seen shows only the M37 or
M36 tunic being worn by SS/WH combat troops pre-War up until 1940 ??

I agree you will find later dated "M40" and these names i know were made up by collectors to catagorize certain items,
but the names are based on the period when the said item was introduced, as i said i had an original M40 tunic dated 1941
but the stamped date does not necessarily mean it was made on such and such date only when it was issued, the item may
have been in the stores for 12 months for example, also the same with later dated tunics, these have probably been re-issued
in my honest opinion, i doubt they were still making M40 style tunics in 1944 but you may find one with a 1944 date but that
is only when it was issued not made, however i find it unbelievable that there are pre War dated M40 tunics, as i said there is
no photographic evidance of them being worn for one thing, i suspect "At the front" have made an error tbh
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

I have to agree mate, all the pics I see in France are either the M37 SS tunic or the M36 Heere one (hard to tell because the SS field grey collar was often replaced by a bottle green one) by old sweats, also many of the pictures have the tunic obscured by cammo smocks. There was also a SS 1941 pattern tunic with just minor differences BUT there were so many personal alterations made to tunics (against regs but it happened) that to say anything did not happen would be guesswork at the least.

Oh and there was also the Earth grey uniform (close in colour to the British battledress) worn by not just camp guards but for a time by all Waffen SS.

Dave
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

Just my feeling but the SS in 1938 would have been wearing SS pattern tunics not Heere since they did not start wearing Heere tunics till around very late 1938 early 1939, depends on the situation I guess if it was a parade then they would not be wearing army pattern on exercise it is possible but unlikely.

So far as I am aware the 1940 pattern was first used in that year but we are talking army pattern and my experience limits me to SS patterns mainly
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

To get back to the original question So called field grey can vary from earth grey to blueish green through grey green to captured Italian wool of neatly blue to almost a dark grey colour depending on the year so to answer the question is impossible without knowing the year (yes I know you spoke of the M40) but even that would have been made in several shades of so called field grey over a couple of years depending on availability of wool and manufacturer/country of manufacture, so as far as I am concerned anything is correct especially when it has seen some service and been subject to the elements (sun and rain) plus getting filthy and being washed.

Can we really say ANY colour is wrong under those circumstances personally I think not.
No doubt others will disagree but that's my feeling so like it or lump it folks.

Cheers

Dave
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Re: Opinions about the color of a M40 tunic?

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

So in answer to your question mate get the thing worn, dirty and in the sun rain and wash and dry it in the sun several times and I doubt if it will look any different to many origionals
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